Tag: interview

  • Interview with Chris Li about “Internal Power” training in Martial Arts

    Interview with Chris Li about “Internal Power” training in Martial Arts

    Below is an interview that originally appeared on Nick Porter’s The Way You Practice blog. Following the English interview is a translation in Spanish by Juantxo Ruiz.


    Hey folks! What follows below is an interview with Chris Li, a martial artist who has primarily trained in Aikido. He’s a great resource within the Aikido community regarding the history of the art and a very approachable guy. He also trains in “internal power”, which is something that never made sense to me, even when I trained Aikido. At best, it seemed like an overly complicated explanation of biomechanics. At worst, it looks like straight up woo-woo.

    So rather than continue to flame online, I decided to ask someone in the know, and Chris was gracious enough to take some time and attempt to explain it to me. Perhaps I’m just a bad interviewer, but I’m still not sure I get it. What do you all think? Is there something to Internal Power training? Is it useful for martial artists?


    Chris Li

    Chris Li (CL) has been training in Aikido since 1981, and has also trained in Judo with a former coach of the Japanese and US Olympic teams and in Shito-ryu Karate, as well as several lineages of Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu. He spent some 15 years living, training, and teaching in Japan. He has been training with Dan Harden, in his Sangenkai organization, since 2010.


    Nick Porter (NP): Thanks for taking the time to talk to me about this. I’ve always been fascinated with the idea of “internal power” but the actual practice vs preach seemed a difficult sell to me. To start, so that we’re on the same page can you define what you mean when you say “Internal Power?”

    CL: Sam Chin once said to me “the thing about internal power is that… it’s power. ” And he’s right, the division between internal and external methods is a largely artificial way of classifying generally different methods of body usage. But they’re all power, they all involve the mind, the body and all the rest. On the other hand, playing the violin and power lifting are also both purely physical tasks that involve the same body and the same musculature but end up in very different places, so there are things that can be very different and yet involve some or all of the same elements. All sports use both strength and endurance, but of course we often divide physical conditioning into areas such as endurance exercises and strength building as a matter of convenience. So the internal / external dichotomy is artificial, of course, but it’s also convenient. 

    When I talk about internal methods I am talking about methods that, generally speaking are referring what is happening within the frame of my own body (rather than, say, a technique that is defined by what happens relative to another person’s body). Further, the methods I’m talking about are largely intent driven. Of course, everything’s intent driven, but the emphasis on intent in internal methods is often that you’re attempting to use or condition your musculature in a way that is generally different from the that you normally use it. 

    NP: Do you feel there’s a disconnect between the way Internal Power is explained (vs, say, the mechanics of tai chi or yoga) and the way it’s practiced such that more people don’t see a reason to begin training it?

    CL: The descriptions are often difficult because they don’t make much sense without hands on. So yes, that can be a problem. IMO, it’s one of those things that has to be felt. People who join us and end up staying usually do so because we’re doing what they were looking for in the first place. In other words, they’d done the research on their own and had an idea of what to expect. But it may be that the difficulty of this type of training precludes, in part, an easily understood short description. Further, there’s no common frame of reference with most folks the way there is if I were talking about, say, baseball. 

    NP: I actually had a great discussion with some IP folks yesterday about that– how “it had to be felt” and “it just can’t be understood” are tough sells in the modern world. Is there a way you think IP could make itself more understandable?

    Additionally, my other question for them (and now for you) is: how do you sort out someone who knows what they’re doing from a woowoo artist? All I’ve heard is

    1. A real IP master is exceedingly, overwhelmingly rare
    2. definitely know one, though.

    So in a system that’s very subjective (“you just have to feel it”), how can you know what you’re feeling is actual “power” instead of the power of suggestion?

    CL: If you can think of a way to make it more understandable then I’m open to suggestions! I suppose that we really need an “elevator speech”, but part of the difficulty is that these things really are quite different. And that brings in the frame of reference problem that I mentioned above. 

    How do you tell? Well, that’s difficult too. 

    Experience with multiple folks certainly helps, so does intellectual honesty. In the end, I guess that you have to make your best judgement and take your chances.

    Traditionally, I guess that you’d challenge an instructor and see what happens, but those kinds of things don’t always turn out well…

    I’d also have to say that defeating or not defeating a particular person doesn’t necessarily say much about the method or theory. Everybody wins and loses when you roll.

    NP: I think IP could take a few things from yoga. The way I see it, movement is movement and at its core, efficient movement is simple movement. This video of Kyuzo Mifune illustrates that point. I understand that his partners are giving him some respect. Even with that in mind, and with the understanding that I know nothing about Judo, I can understand and respect how he’s moving because how he’s moving seems logical, simple, and efficient. I contrast that with a lot of the  IP videos I watch: where an uke grabs for their life, gets twisted around, then gets chucked across the room as everyone looks on in amazement. At its best, it seems like suggestion and a very compliant partner. At its worst, it starts looking like the no-touch KO people.

    The thing I hate about the “it has to be felt” argument is that it’s self-fulfilling and, too often, the uke is blamed for anything that goes wrong (“You just have to relax more”, etc). You discussed the method and the theory. What, exactly, is that method/theory? What do you feel “Internal Power” offer specifically that other forms of martial arts/body organization do not? If its primary benefit is efficient movement, can’t you refine efficient movement through other means? If the goal is to increase martial efficacy, why, frankly, are a lot of the IP guys lousy fighters?

    CL: There are a bunch of big issues in that question, but I’ll try to break out a few. 

    Efficient movement is one of those things that sounds good, but doesn’t really mean that much. Kyuzo Mifune was very efficient, but so was Mike Tyson – and they moved very differently and had different types of bodies. It’s a little like saying “delicious food”, what that means varies.  Of course there are many ways to develop efficient movement, and there are many ways to become an efficient fighter. A particular method may be better or worse for a given situation, but no method is really better or worse in and of itself. 

    IP won’t make you a fighter, any more than strength training will. But most coaches would recommend that you do some kind of strength training because it will help you to be a better fighter – and most people doing strength training are probably pretty poor fighters. They’re different, but often complementary, activities. IP training can help you to organize your body to generate power, sometimes a lot of power, in a very efficient manner that has a lot of longevity. But it does take a while and not everybody will be interested in it. Are there other ways? Sure there are. 

    IP methods aren’t monolithic, so talking about theory is going to vary – but in addition what I mentioned above I would add that most internal arts are trying to develop whole body power that rely more on movement within the frame of one’s body than the momentum of the weight of that frame moving forward as a whole, and this usually involves some degree of “softness” in order to facilitate the maximum usage of the body frame. 

    A lot of demonstrations are bad, that’s true. Similar things happen in Aikido – you’re engaged in a cooperative training method to learn a certain skill, and like all rulesets folks learn how to game that ruleset in order to look “good” while forgetting that the ruleset, especially in uke-nage based training methods, is completely artificial. That doesn’t mean that it’s a poor training method, just there are pitfalls. 

    The “it has to be felt” thing is all about that common frame of reference from above. I’m not sure what you mean by blaming uke in this case – it’s just about feeling it for yourself. 

    NP: Starting from the top: It’s true that Mifune and Tyson both moved efficiently while moving very differently, but the difference between that and what I see with a lot of IP people is that the fruits of an athlete’s labors are a bit more obvious– the person gets thrown or hit when they don’t want to be.  I guess I also don’t understand the semantic differences between how an IP person would move and how Mifune or Tyson would move. As I understand it, even for different ends, efficient movement is efficient movement. A judoka and a violin player are both using gross and fine motor movements– the difference is that a boxer or violin player or yoga instructor can explain, generally in very simple terms, how they are doing what they are doing. IP people have, in my experience, a very complex vernacular that seems to shut off any understanding of the movements until you’ve already invested.  

    The “It has to be felt” line gets me because, I can look at any athlete, in any discipline (be it ballet or boxing) and while I can’t replicate their movements, I can understand that they are moving efficiently and correctly just by watching them. I don’t necessarily see that in IP demonstrations, where someone wiggles a hip and their partner flies across the room. That’s where you get people comparing IP people to the no-touch people– a fundamental disconnect between what is normally needed to move another person that way (kuzushi, etc) and what they see in the IP demonstration (none of that). What are they missing?

    Regarding fighting: I appreciate your saying that IP won’t make you a fighter, but could you pass that along to the rest of the IP community? There seems to be a disconnect– where on the one hand, IP is touted by some as a health/wellness exercise and on the other hand you see people in martial arts uniforms looking incredulously at their IP master as he/she manipulates someone’s balance or throws them or whatever, and these students then swear that their instructor is “too deadly for the ring” or whatever other cliche you want to use. 

    Is there an intersection at any point between IP and fighting? If so, why isn’t there a better track record for IP people fighting? If not, do you feel the community would be better served by disconnecting from the idea that fighting skill is a goal/sequela of these exercises? Furthermore (and I know I’ve posed a lot of questions here), how would you, as an IP practitioner yourself, convince someone who’s only done internal training that maybe they are NOT as fearsome a fighter as they may believe themselves to be? 

    CL: A lot of people would call Mifune an IP person, I’m not sure that I would. In any case, yes, it’s hard to see – that’s a large part of why getting direct hands on is usually more reliable. It’s also one factor among many. So two folks hitting may be using different methods of body organization with little visual distinction. But sorting the whole thing out can get complex. 

    The terms seem to be complex because of that lack of a common frame of reference that I mentioned above, and because folks are trying to describe things that are happening inside the body – I’ve seen some biomechanical descriptions of golf from the internal body structures that are equally opaque to me. Like anything else, once you get some experience with it those things get easier. 

    Yes, you can describe a lot of what is happening in biomechanical terms (and we do), but part of the difficulty is that knowing the exact biomechanics doesn’t really help that much in execution. For those things, imagery and visualization – intent based approaches work better. That’s the classical method, and actually visualization and imagery is now commonly used among professional athletes. If I ask you to wiggle your ears, which is a purely physical task, describing the exact biomechanics involved is unlikely to actually help you wiggle your ears. But visualization and imagery can often help you access those actions where intellectual description runs into difficulties. 

    Chris Davis at Martial Body actually has quite a good collection of clear material and explanations, FWIW: https://www.martialbody.com/

    For the IP community – there isn’t one, really. There are a lot of folks doing a lot of things, some of them questionable, with no general agreement of who’s even in the community. It’s a lot like the Aikido world. 

    For fighters, if we’re talking about modern sports fighters, I don’t think that IP has a quick enough return on investment, generally speaking. Mike Tyson went from zero to Olympic gold in three or four years, retooling your body usage just takes too long to compete with that. Even if you invest the time it’s as I said, one factor among many in fighting. Does long distance running make you a better fighter? Probably, but that doesn’t mean that long distance runners are fighters. When you’re talking about IP as a stand alone, it’s just that – a kind of conditioning and body usage. If you’re talking about it as attached to one tactical martial system or another then you have a lot of other factors in play as well. 

    NP: Tyson never made it to the Olympics but I think I understand what you mean.

    I won’t keep you much longer, so in closing: what do you think people outside of IP fundamentally misunderstand about it? What do you think people inside of IP fundamentally misunderstand about it? If you had to make that “elevator pitch” to try and convince IP skeptics that what you’re doing has value beyond a basic conditioning workout, what would you tell them?

    CL: As I said earlier, it’s a method of conditioning and usage. That usage can be very useful in martial applications – but that’s best experienced hands on, and that’s basically what I tell folks.  Most of all, it’s interesting, much more interesting than your basic conventional physical training, at least to me. 

    People outside of IP may tend to think that it’s woo woo – but it isn’t, it’s entirely physical and logical (it has to be, really). People inside – well these things are hardly monolithic, but perhaps it’s true that they overestimate how much weight those skills get them in a fight when they may lack other skills or experiences. 

    NP: Being interesting (and something you’d come back to consistently) is generally what keeps people training more than anything else. Thanks for taking the time to talk to me. 


    Entrevista con Chris Li sobre el entrenamiento de “poder interno” en artes marciales

    18 DE JULIO DE 2019 ~ NICK PORTER

    ¡Hey gente! Lo que sigue a continuación es una entrevista con Chris Li, un artista marcial que se ha entrenado principalmente en Aikido. Es un gran divulgador dentro de la comunidad de Aikido con respecto a la historia del arte y un tipo muy accesible. También entrena en “poder interno”, que es algo que nunca tuvo sentido para mí, incluso cuando entrenaba Aikido. En el mejor de los casos, parecía una explicación demasiado complicada de la biomecánica. En el peor de los casos, se ve como charlatanería .

    Entonces, en lugar de seguir en línea, decidí preguntarle a alguien que lo supiera, y Chris tuvo la gentileza de tomarse un tiempo e intentar explicármelo. Quizás solo soy un mal entrevistador, pero todavía no estoy seguro de haberlo entendido. ¿Qué piensan todos ustedes? ¿Hay algo en el entrenamiento de energía interna? ¿Es útil para artistas marciales?


    meyer-goo-chris-li-me

    Chris Li (CL) ha estado entrenando en Aikido desde 1981, y también ha entrenado en Judo con un ex entrenador de los equipos olímpicos japonés y estadounidense y en Karate Shito-ryu, así como varios linajes de Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu. Pasó unos 15 años viviendo, entrenando y enseñando en Japón. Ha estado entrenando con Dan Harden, en su organización Sangenkai, desde 2010.


    Nick Porter (NP): Gracias por tomarse el tiempo de hablarme sobre esto. Siempre me ha fascinado la idea del “poder interno”, pero la práctica real frente al discurso me pareció algo difícil de vender. Para comenzar, para que estemos en la misma línea, ¿puedes definir a qué te refieres cuando dices “Energía interna”?

    CL: Sam Chin me dijo una vez “lo que pasa con el poder interno es que … es poder. “Y tiene razón, la división entre métodos internos y externos es una forma en gran medida artificial de clasificar métodos generalmente diferentes de uso del cuerpo. Pero todos son poder, todos involucran la mente, el cuerpo y todo lo demás. Por otro lado, tocar el violin y el levantamiento de pesas también son tareas puramente físicas que involucran el mismo cuerpo y la misma musculatura, pero terminan en lugares muy diferentes, por lo que hay cosas que pueden ser muy diferentes y, sin embargo, involucrar los mismos elementos o solo a algunos de ellos. Todos los deportes utilizan tanto la fuerza como la resistencia, pero, por supuesto, a menudo dividimos el acondicionamiento físico en áreas tales como ejercicios de resistencia y desarrollo de la fuerza por pura conveniencia. Entonces, la dicotomía interno/externo es artificial, por supuesto, pero también es conveniente.

    Cuando hablo de métodos internos, estoy hablando de métodos que, en general, se refieren a lo que sucede dentro del marco de mi propio cuerpo (en lugar de, por ejemplo, una técnica que se define por lo que sucede en relación con el cuerpo de otra persona). Además, los métodos de los que hablo se basan principalmente en la intención. Por supuesto, todo se basa en la intención, pero el énfasis en la intención en los métodos internos es lo que a menudo está intentando usar o condicionar tu musculatura de una manera que generalmente es diferente de la que normalmente usa.

    NP: ¿Sientes que hay una desconexión entre la forma en que se explica el Poder Interno (vs, por ejemplo, la mecánica del tai chi o el yoga) y la forma en que se practica de tal manera que no haya más personas que vean una razón para comenzar a entrenarlo?

    CL: Las descripciones son a menudo difíciles porque no tienen mucho sentido sin experimentarlo antes. Entonces sí, eso puede ser un problema. En mi opinión, es algo que hay que sentir. Las personas que se unen a nosotros y terminan quedándose generalmente lo hacen porque estamos haciendo lo que estaban buscando en primer lugar. En otras palabras, habían realizado la investigación por su cuenta y tenían una idea de qué esperar. Pero puede ser que la dificultad de este tipo de entrenamiento excluya, en parte, una breve descripción fácil de entender. Además, no hay un marco de referencia común con la mayoría de la gente como si se estuviera hablando, por ejemplo, de béisbol.

    NP: Ayer tuve una gran discusión con algunas personas que trabajan Poder Interno, sobre cómo “tenía que sentirse” y sobre qué es algo que “simplemente no se puede entender”, que son argumentos difíciles de vender en el mundo moderno. ¿Hay alguna forma en que creas que el Poder Interno podría hacerse más comprensible?

    Además, mi otra pregunta para ellos (y ahora para usted) es: ¿cómo diferenciar a alguien que sabe lo que está haciendo de una superchería de artista (marcial)? Todo lo que he escuchado es:
    Un verdadero maestro de poder Interno es extremadamente raro.
    Sin embargo, definitivamente conozco uno.

    Entonces, en un sistema que es muy subjetivo (“solo tienes que sentirlo”), ¿cómo puedes saber que lo que sientes es el “poder” real en lugar del poder de sugestión?

    CL: Si puedes pensar en una forma de hacerlo más comprensible, ¡estoy abierto a sugerencias! Supongo que realmente necesitamos un “discurso de ascensor”, pero parte de la dificultad es que estas cosas realmente son bastante diferentes. Y eso trae el problema del marco de referencia que mencioné anteriormente.
    Como lo dices Bueno, eso también es difícil.

    La experiencia con múltiples personas ciertamente ayuda, al igual que la honestidad intelectual. Al final, supongo que debes formarte una opinión y arriesgarte.

    Tradicionalmente, supongo que desafiarás a un instructor y verás qué sucede, pero ese tipo de cosas no siempre salen bien …

    También debería decir que derrotar o no derrotar a una persona en particular no necesariamente dice mucho sobre el método o la teoría. Todos ganan y pierden cuando ruedas.

    NP: Creo que el Poder Interno podría tomar algunas cosas del yoga. A mi modo de ver, el movimiento es movimiento y, en esencia, el movimiento eficiente es simple movimiento. Este video de Kyuzo Mifune ilustra ese punto (nota, se refiere, creo a un vídeo muy conocido de Mizune sensei, uno de los grandes históricos del Judo, demostrando técnicas con alumnos suyos de alto nivel). Entiendo que sus Ike’s le están dando un poco de respeto. Incluso con eso en mente, y con el entendimiento de que no sé nada sobre el Judo, puedo entender y respetar cómo se está moviendo porque cómo se está moviendo parece lógico, simple y eficiente. Comparo eso con muchos de los videos de Poder Interno que veo: donde un uke agarra como si su vida dependiera de ello, se da la vuelta y luego es arrojado a través de la habitación mientras todos miran con asombro. En el mejor de los casos, parece sugestión y un uke muy obediente. En el peor de los casos, comienza a parecerse a las personas KO sin contacto.

    Lo que odio del argumento de “tiene que sentirse” es que se cumple por sí mismo y, con demasiada frecuencia, se culpa al uke de cualquier cosa que salga mal (“Solo tienes que relajarte más”, etc.). Hablaste a propósito del método y la teoría. ¿Qué es exactamente ese método / teoría? ¿Qué crees que ofrece el “Poder interno” específicamente que otras formas de artes marciales / organización del cuerpo no ofrecen? Si su principal beneficio es el movimiento eficiente, ¿no puede refinar el movimiento eficiente por otros medios? Si el objetivo es aumentar la eficacia marcial, ¿por qué, francamente, muchos de los tipos de Poder Interno son pésimos luchadores?

    CL: Hay un montón de grandes problemas en esa pregunta, pero intentaré aclarar algunos.

    El movimiento eficiente es una de esas cosas que suena bien, pero en realidad no significa mucho. Kyuzo Mifune fue muy eficiente, pero también lo fue Mike Tyson, y se movían de manera muy diferente y tenían diferentes tipos de cuerpos. Es un poco como hablar de “comida deliciosa”: lo que eso significa varía. Por supuesto, hay muchas maneras de desarrollar movimientos eficientes, y hay muchas maneras de convertirse en un luchador eficiente. Un método particular puede ser mejor o peor para una situación dada, pero ningún método es realmente mejor o peor en sí mismo.

    El Pode Interno no te convertirá en un luchador, como tampoco lo hará el entrenamiento de fuerza. Pero la mayoría de los entrenadores recomendaría que realices algún tipo de entrenamiento de fuerza porque te ayudará a ser un mejor luchador, y la mayoría de las personas que hacen entrenamiento de fuerza son probablemente luchadores bastante pobres. Son actividades diferentes, pero a menudo complementarias. El entrenamiento de PI puede ayudarte a organizar tu cuerpo para generar energía, a veces mucha energía, de una manera muy eficiente que tiene mucha longevidad (¿?). Pero lleva un tiempo y no todos estarán interesados en ello. ¿Hay otras formas? Claro que los hay.

    Los métodos de Poder Interno no son monolíticos, por lo que si hablamos de teoría el asunto variará, pero además de lo que mencioné anteriormente, agregaría que la mayoría de las artes internas tratan de desarrollar el poder de todo el cuerpo que es algo que se basa más en el movimiento dentro del marco del cuerpo que el ímpetu del peso de ese marco que avanza en su conjunto, y esto generalmente implica cierto grado de “suavidad” para facilitar el uso máximo del marco del cuerpo.

    Demasiadas demostraciones (exhibiciones) son malas, eso es cierto. Suceden cosas similares en el Aikido: participa en un método de entrenamiento cooperativo para aprender una determinada habilidad y, como en todos los conjuntos de reglas, la gente aprende a jugar ese conjunto de reglas para verse “bien” mientras se olvida de que el conjunto de reglas, especialmente los métodos de entrenamiento basados en el trabajo uke-nage, es algo completamente artificial. Eso no significa que sea un método de entrenamiento deficiente, solo que existen dificultades.

    Lo de que “tiene que sentirse” tiene que ver con ese marco de referencia común desde arriba. No estoy seguro de lo que quieres decir con culpar a uke en este caso: se trata de sentirlo por ti mismo.

    NP: Comenzando desde arriba: es cierto que Mifune y Tyson se movian eficientemente haciéndolo de manera muy diferente, pero la diferencia entre eso y lo que veo con muchas personas con IPI es que los frutos del trabajo de un atleta son un poco más obvios: la persona es arrojada o golpeada cuando no quiere serlo. Supongo que tampoco entiendo las diferencias semánticas entre cómo se movería una persona PI y cómo se moverían Mifune o Tyson. Según tengo entendido, incluso para diferentes fines, el movimiento eficiente es un movimiento eficiente. Un judoka y un violinista utilizan movimientos motores gruesos y finos; la diferencia es que un boxeador, un violinista o un instructor de yoga pueden explicar, en términos muy simples, cómo están haciendo lo que están haciendo. La gente de PI tiene, en mi experiencia, una lengua vernácula muy compleja que parece impedir cualquier comprensión de los movimientos hasta que ya estás familiarizado en ellos.

    El argumento de “Tiene que sentirse” me atrapa porque, puedo mirar a cualquier atleta, en cualquier disciplina (ya sea ballet o boxeo) y aunque no puedo repetir sus movimientos, puedo entender que se mueven de manera eficiente y correcta con solo mirarlos. No necesariamente veo eso en las demostraciones de PI, donde alguien mueve la cadera y su compañero vuela por la habitación. Ahí es donde aparecen personas que comparan a las personas que trabajan PI con las personas sin contacto: una desconexión fundamental entre lo que normalmente se necesita para mover a otra persona de esa manera (kuzushi, etc.) y lo que ven en la demostración de PI (nada de eso). ¿Qué se están perdiendo?

    Con respecto a las peleas: agradezco que digas que el PI no te convertirá en un luchador, pero ¿podrías transmitirlo al resto de la comunidad de PI? Parece haber una desconexión, donde, por un lado, el PI es promocionada por algunos como un ejercicio de salud / bienestar y, por otro lado, se ve a personas con uniformes de artes marciales mirando con incredulidad a su maestro de PI mientras manipula el equilibrio de alguien o los tira o lo que sea, y estos estudiantes juran que su instructor es “demasiado mortal para el fin (para luchar en un cuadrilátero)” o cualquier otro cliché que desee usar.

    ¿Hay una intersección en algún punto entre IP y la lucha? Si es así, ¿por qué no hay un mejor historial de las personas que luchan con IP? Si no es así, ¿cree que la comunidad estaría mejor atendida al desconectarse de la idea de que la habilidad de lucha es un objetivo / secuela de estos ejercicios? Además (y sé que he planteado muchas preguntas aquí), ¿cómo podría usted, como profesional del Poder Interno, convencer a alguien que solo ha realizado un entrenamiento interno de que tal vez NO son un luchador tan temible como pueden creerse?

    CL: Mucha gente llamaría a Mifune una persona IP, no estoy seguro de que lo fuese. En cualquier caso, sí, es difícil de ver, esa es una gran parte de por qué el tener manos directas (nota : poner las manos directamente si te un profesor de PI) suele ser más confiable. También es un factor entre muchos. Entonces, dos personas que golpean pueden estar usando diferentes métodos de organización del cuerpo con poca distinción visual. Pero resolverlo todo puede volverse complejo.
    Los términos parecen ser complejos debido a la falta de un marco de referencia común, como ya mencioné anteriormente, y porque la gente está tratando de describir cosas que están sucediendo dentro del cuerpo. He visto algunas descripciones biomecánicas del golf desde las estructuras internas del cuerpo, que son igualmente opacos para mi. Como con cualquier otra cosa, una vez que tenga algo de experiencia con eso, las cosas se vuelven más fáciles.

    Sí, se puede describir mucho de lo que está sucediendo en términos biomecánicos (y lo hacemos), pero parte de la dificultad es que conocer la biomecánica exacta no ayuda mucho en la ejecución. Para esas cosas, las imágenes y la visualización, los enfoques basados en la intención funcionan mejor. Ese es el método clásico, y en realidad la visualización y las imágenes es algo que actualmente se usan comúnmente entre los atletas profesionales. Si le pido que mueva las orejas, que es una tarea puramente física, es poco probable que describir la biomecánica exacta involucrada realmente lo ayude a moverlas. Pero la visualización y las imágenes a menudo pueden ayudar a acceder a aquellas acciones donde la descripción intelectual se encuentra con dificultades.

    Chris Davis en Martial Body en realidad tiene una buena colección de material claro y explicaciones.

    En relación a la comunidad de PI: en realidad no hay solo una. Hay muchas personas que hacen muchas cosas, algunas de ellas cuestionables, sin un acuerdo general de quién está en la comunidad. Se parece mucho al mundo del Aikido.

    En relación con los luchadores, si hablamos de luchadores deportivos modernos, no creo que la propiedad intelectual tenga un retorno de la inversión lo suficientemente rápido, en general. Mike Tyson pasó de cero a oro olímpico en tres o cuatro años, reorganizar el uso de su cuerpo lleva demasiado tiempo para competir con eso. Incluso si inviertes el tiempo es como dije, un factor entre muchos en la lucha. ¿Correr largas distancias te hace un mejor luchador? Probablemente, pero eso no significa que los corredores de larga distancia sean luchadores. Cuando se habla de Poder Interno como algo independiente, es solo eso: un tipo de acondicionamiento y uso del cuerpo. Si estás hablando de eso como un sistema marcial táctico u otro, también tienes muchos otros factores en juego.

    NP: Tyson nunca llegó a los Juegos Olímpicos, pero creo que entiendo lo que quieres decir. No le voy a entretener mucho más tiempo, así que para concluir: ¿qué cree que las personas fuera del entorno del PoderInterno fundamentalmente malinterpretan? ¿Qué crees que las personas dentro de PI entienden fundamentalmente al respecto? Si tuviera que hacer ese “discurso de ascensor” para tratar de convencer a los escépticos de IP de que lo que está haciendo tiene un valor más allá de un entrenamiento de acondicionamiento básico, ¿qué les diría?

    CL: Como dije antes, es un método de acondicionamiento y práctica. Esa práctica puede ser muy útil en aplicaciones marciales, pero eso es lo mejor con experiencia, y eso es básicamente lo que le digo a la gente. Sobre todo, es interesante, mucho más interesante que tu entrenamiento físico convencional básico, al menos para mí.

    Las personas que no pertenecen al PI pueden tender a pensar que todo esto es charlatanería, pero no lo es, es completamente físico y lógico (tiene que serlo realmente). Gente de adentro: bueno, estas cosas no son monolíticas, pero tal vez sea cierto que sobreestiman cuánto peso les dan esas habilidades en una pelea cuando pueden carecer de otras habilidades o experiencias.

    NP: Ser interesante (y algo a lo que volverías constantemente) es generalmente lo que hace que la gente entrene más que cualquier otra cosa. Gracias por tomarte el tiempo de hablar conmigo.


    Published by: Christopher Li – Honolulu, Hawaii

  • Interview with Aikido Shihan Morito Suganuma – Part 2

    Interview with Aikido Shihan Morito Suganuma – Part 2

    Morito Suganuma and Morihei UeshibaMorito Suganuma and Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba
    “I show everybody the secrets everyday”

    What I try to keep in mind is to follow O-Sensei’s teachings and philosophy, at least my understanding and interpretation of his teachings. I want to convey what O-Sensei himself taught to Aikido students. The most important thing, as O-Sensei used to say, is don’t get injured, don’t do wrong things, and don’t force techniques. Rather than show how strong you are, cultivate each other, and work together to show Aikido’s good techniques. This is how we become good Aikidoists. This is what O-Sensei said.

    O-Sensei also used to say something like all the people in the world should work, hand in hand, to create or develop a peaceful world. This is how we help society to work to achieve the idea of this kind of world. I try to do this through Aikido. When I have a chance, I always tell this to Aikido students.

    Interview with Morito Suganuma Shihan
    USAF Eastern Region Summer Camp – August 2003

    Living and training in Japan we would often say “Kobayashi in the east and Suganuma in the west” – referring to the large networks of Aikido schools established by Yasuo Kobayashi Sensei in eastern Japan and Morito Suganuma Sensei in western Japan.

    In 1970, shortly after Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba passed away, Suganuma Sensei was dispatched to Fukuoka by Ni-Dai Doshu Kisshomaru Ueshiba as the Aikikai’s representative for the Kyushu area of Japan. Today the network of schools that he established boasts some 70 dojo and more than 4,000 students.

    This is the second part of a two part interview with Suganuma Sensei that originally appeared in the January 2005 issue of Gekkan Hiden (月刊秘伝 / “Secret Teachings Monthly”), a well known martial arts magazine in Japan. You may wish to read Part 1 before reading this section.

    This interview was also published in a collection of interviews with students of the Founder published in Japanese as 開祖の横顔 (“Profiles of the Founder”) in 2009. There was a short introduction to this work in the article “Morihei Ueshiba – Profiles of the Founder“. A number of English translations of interviews from that collection appeared have appeared previously – Nobuyoshi Tamura Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Hiroshi Isoyama Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Shigenobu Okumura Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Nobuyuki Watanabe Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Masatake Fujita Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2) , Yoshimitsu Yamada Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Kanshu Sunadomari Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Hiroshi Kato Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2) and Yoshio Kuroiwa Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2).

    Morito Suganuma SenseiMorito Suganuma (菅沼守人) Sensei

    Interview with Aikido Shihan Morito Suganuma – Part 2

    “Shiai” (試合 – “competition) is “shiai” (死合 – ”joining in death”) – an exchange of lives.

    Q: Were there many young people among the students at that time?

    A: Yes, there were. The Giants coach Hiroshi Arakawa (*Translator’s note – 荒川博, mentioned here), Hiroshi Hiraoka (*Translator’s note: 平岡煕 – the “father of Japanese baseball”, mentioned here), and Sunao Sonoda (園田直), who would later become the Minister of Health, Labor and Welfare, also received instruction from O-Sensei. Coach Arakawa was extremely enthusiastic about his training and would run to training in the morning (laughing), we would train together. Arakawa-san published a book called “Can you become Sadaharu Oh?” (君は王貞治になれるか), and most of what he wrote there are things from Aikido. It must have had a great influence on the way that he thought about baseball.

    Sadaharu Oh and Hiroshi ArakawaCoach Hiroshi Arakawa watches Sadaharu Oh practice cutting – 1964

    Can You Become Sadaharu Oh?“Can you become Sadaharu Oh?” (君は王貞治になれるか)

    Q: Is there something in particular that you remember from your days as an uchi-deshi?

    A: Sensei would speak very quickly in a typical Wakayama accent. The long time students were used to it, but it was difficult for me to understand. One day in the midst of a discussion at the dojo he directed me to do something, but he spoke so quickly that I couldn’t really understand what he meant. I could only understand that he said “go get something“. (laughing) But O-Sensei didn’t like to be asked to repeat himself, so when I cocked my head in puzzlement he shouted at me “read the situation!” (気を読め!). So I said “yes”, but when I brought the usual scroll with the symbolic portrait that I talked about earlier he yelled “Not that!” angrily. (laughing) But after that his mood shifted suddenly and he said “I used to have a body like this…”. When O-Sensei became angry he would become really angry, but he would cool down swiftly and he never held a grudge. His mood changes were sudden.

    Q: “Read the situation” seems to be something that the Founder would teach…

    A: That’s right. In any case, one really couldn’t ask “what was that?” while he was speaking. I was told, “When you’re told to do something you must react immediately, if you can’t do that then you’ll never be a fully qualified Budoka!”. One can’t just ask carelessly “Sensei, what did you mean?”. That was really a major blunder.

    Also, and I remember this clearly even now, he was very strict about time. At demonstrations, even from quite a bit of time before, he would start asking “Are we still OK? Will we make it?”. Also when we would go out someplace he’d say “Always leave with the intention of riding on the previous train”. If there was a train that left at exactly nine o’clock then we’d have to be on the platform in time for the train that left just before that one. My sempai would say “Ichi Kisha Mae” (一汽車前 – “One Train Ahead”). Since one never knew what might happen on the way there we would always make sure that there was extra time – even now I still teach this lesson.

    Morito Suganuma and Morihei Ueshiba on a train platformMorito Suganuma and Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba wait for a train

    Q: Now that you mention it, I remember seeing a photograph of you holding O-Sensei’s bag on a train platform…

    A: Yes, I often accompanied O-Sensei as an “otomo” (“attendant”) when he went out. As I recall now, there was one year that we went to Iwama near the Obon season. Since the steam train was crowded I boarded first and went to look for an open seat, but somehow I lost sight of O-Sensei. (laughing) At the time I hadn’t been an uchi-deshi for very long, and I thought “Oh no, what a disaster!” – though I looked left and right, back and forth, I couldn’t find him anywhere. After a while, at a loss as to what to do, there was nothing else left but to call Hombu Dojo – “Idiot! O-Sensei’s already come back!”. (laughing) I got a vigorous scolding later on.

    Q: (laughing) I there something that the Founder said that was especially memorable?

    A: One day during morning training one of the beginners said “O-Sensei, instead of always doing the same things, could you teach us some of the secrets every once in a while?”. As I was thinking “he’s going to get angry now…”, O-Sensei just laughed and smiled “I show everybody the secrets everyday”, he said. In other words, the secrets are not any special kind of thing, he meant “the secrets are in the day-to-day repetition”. When I heard that I thought “that’s right!”. Every day’s training was certainly a repetition of basics, but it is because they are important that we repeat them. “When you are lost, return to the basics”, some people say, and even today I keep those two things in mind when I train.

    Q: Was there some times that the Founder became particularly angry?

    A: Rather than “angry”, I would say that his tone of voice became strongly remonstrative, and that was with regards to competitive contests that tested techniques against one another. “Shiai (“competition”) is “shiai” (“joining in death”), it means an exchange of lives, so it’s not something to participate in lightly for the comparison of strength.”, he would always say. O−Sensei himself lived through the scenes of many battles, so it may be that he was unable to approve of contests for the comparison of strength in this peaceful era.

    Morito Suganuma group photoAikido’s youth power – from right:
    Norihiko Ishihashi Shihan, Nobuyuki Watanabe Shihan, Morito Suganuma Shihan
    Hiroshi Arakawa, Kenji Shimizu Shihan, Minoru Kurita Shihan

    ‘Serious’ means to tighten the gaps

    Q: I have heard that you also practice Zen?

    A: Our family originally belonged to the Soto Zen Buddhist sect, so I had that connection, and by chance I had a connection to the Zen Master Shinryu Umeda (梅田信隆 – former director of Soto Zen Buddhism), so I became a student in Showa year 56 (1981).

    Mushin nareba daido ni kisu.Calligraphy by Shinryu Umeda
    「無心なれば大道に帰す」 – “Mushin nareba daido ni kisu”
    “Having no mind you return to the Great Way”
    Meaning that a mind free of desire and attachments
    is the mind of enlightenment.

    Q: How is your training going?

    A: I have learned many things from both Zen and Umeda Zenji. When I first began I was told “value the present”. “There is no yesterday or tomorrow, what is important is right now. The continuation of the present becomes your life, so make the present the most important.” – I remember those words even now.

    Q: What is important for you in the transmission of Aikido as Budo?

    A: The technical is important, of course, but first what is important is one’s mental attitude. One’s everyday speech and conduct, their attitude – the importance of “one strike with the hand, one throw with the legs” (一拳手一投足). Also, in the old dojo one day O-Sensei suddenly asked me “Suganuma, do you understand what ‘serious’ is”?” (真面目 – “majime”) – “‘Serious’ means to tighten the gaps – because idiots leave them open.”, I was told. At the time I didn’t really get it, but now I think that it is to correct oneself, regulate oneself, and that from this stems mastery of the etiquette of Budo – that the carriage of one’s body becomes without openings.

    Q: In the later years of the Founder the words “softness” and “harmony” were often used, were those also used to make one think of Aikido in terms of Budo?

    A: I think that for O-Sensei Aikido was always Budo. Sometimes when he looked in on training he would see the students throwing in Kokyu-nage and say “People don’t fall over that easily!”. (laughing) Of course, forced struggling, or throwing with needless violence is just dangerous. Osawa Sensei (大澤喜三郎 – Kisaburo Osawa) would say “Strong and stupid are different. One’s sensitivity cannot be stupid.”. For that reason, just falling even though the technique is not working is not training. I think that we must sense each other’s power precisely when training so that we can develop together and knead our bodies.

    Morito Suganuma - Daruma calligraphyDaruma and calligraphy by Morito Suganuma
    「ころがせ、転がせ、まだ角がる」
    “I roll and I roll, but I still have corners”

    Q: The word “knead” (練る) is also used in arts like Chinese Kempo (*Translator’s note: often in the sense of “temper” or “harden”), how do you understand the meaning here?

    A: For example, something that you would want to knead, like a rice cake. We take the individual grains of rice, knead them and knead them, and make them into a sticky rice cake. Human beings bodies are the same way, one takes the disparate pieces and kneads them through Aikido practice until a soft, strong, unified body is made, that is the image. For that reason, one ought not to think about controlling some joint in training – I think that it is important that both the uke and the tori use their entire bodies, sense each other’s power, and knead each other.

    Q: That’s a very easy to understand example.

    A: That was one of O-Sensei’s teachings, to respect the principles of nature – in other words, not to struggle in one’s movements. When one struggles during their movements it becomes what I mentioned before, we injure each other. Also, not to make unnecessary movements. Not to make one’s training uneven. In other words, not to suddenly stop by training recklessly. I call these the “three nothings” (三無) – no struggling (無理), no unevenness (むら), as much as possible using no waste (無駄).

    Q: The “three nothings”? You certainly seem very relaxed, to be speaking like this.

    A: Out in society when one says that they are a Budoka it has a strict or frightening image, but I don’t like that very much. In the dojo, and during every day life, I just want to act normally. Because it’s less exhausting that way. (laughing)

    O-Sensei often quote Kiichi Hogen (*Translator’s note: see “Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido“), and this is one of the things that he would say:

    「来たるを迎え、去るは送る、対すれば相和す。五・五の十、一・九の十、二・八の十。大は方処を絶し、細は微塵に入る。活殺自在」

    If it comes meet it, if it leaves, send it on its way, if it opposes then unify it. 5 and 5 are 10, 1 and 9 are 10, 2 and 8 are 10. The large suppresses all, the small enters the microscopic. The power of life and death.

    I believe that I would like to create that kind of feeling and that kind of a body.

     

    Gekkan Hiden, January 2005


    Published by: Christopher Li – Honolulu, HI

     

  • Interview with Aikido Shihan Morito Suganuma – Part 1

    Interview with Aikido Shihan Morito Suganuma – Part 1

    Morito Suganuma Jugglers Hilo

    Morito Suganuma Sensei faces dueling jugglers in Hilo Hawaii – 2013

    Morito Suganuma (菅沼守人) was born in Fukushima, Japan in 1942. A regional pole vaulting champion in high school, he moved on to studying Aikido with Nobuyoshi Tamura in 1963 and then entered Aikikai Hombu Dojo in 1967 as one of the last uchi-deshi to train there under Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba.

    He is the head of Aikido Shoheijuku, which has a large number of Aikido dojo centered around the Fukuoka area of Kyushu, Japan, and was promoted to 8th Dan by the Aikikai in January 2001.

    This is the first part of a two part interview with Suganuma Sensei that originally appeared in the January 2005 issue of Gekkan Hiden (月刊秘伝 / “Secret Teachings Monthly”), a well known martial arts magazine in Japan.

    This interview was also published in a collection of interviews with students of the Founder published in Japanese as 開祖の横顔 (“Profiles of the Founder”) in 2009. There was a short introduction to this work in the article “Morihei Ueshiba – Profiles of the Founder“. A number of English translations of interviews from that collection appeared have appeared previously – Nobuyoshi Tamura Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Hiroshi Isoyama Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Shigenobu Okumura Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Nobuyuki Watanabe Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Masatake Fujita Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2) , Yoshimitsu Yamada Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Kanshu Sunadomari Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Hiroshi Kato Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2) and Yoshio Kuroiwa Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2).

    Morito Suganuma SenseiMorito Suganuma (菅沼守人) Sensei

    Interview with Aikido Shihan Morito Suganuma – Part 1

    The Founder’s body was extremely soft.

    Q: First, I would like to ask what first inspired you to learn Aikido.

    A: At first it was because I read an article about O-Sensei in a magazine when I was in my sixth year of elementary school. After that, I enrolled at the physical education department (*Suganuma Sensei was a pole vaulter) at Juntendo University (順天堂大学 ), but I got injured and ended up enrolling at Asia University (亜細亜大学). There I was able to see the training of the Aikido club with my own eyes, and that was how I began Aikido. That was in Showa year 38 (1963).

    Q: What was the instruction like at the university?

    A: It was Nobuyoshi Tamura Sensei. Now he is teaching in France.

    Q: When did you enroll at Hombu Dojo?

    A: I enrolled as an uchi-deshi when I graduated in Showa year 42 (1967). Those who were there around the same time were Seishiro Endo Sensei (遠藤征四郎) and Masatake Fujita (藤田昌武). O-Sensei was 84 years old at the time, I learned from O-Sensei for the next two years, until he passed away.

    Q: You were living in the dojo, not commuting from outside?

    A: That was just at the time when they were rebuilding the dojo, so we rented rooms nearby. When they rebuilt the dojo they first began with O-Sensei’s living quarters, so O-Sensei would go back and forth between Iwama and Hombu Dojo, and would stay in the office of the old dojo. At those times we would massage O-Sensei’s fingers and shoulders until he went to sleep. So we would be with him the entire time from when he arose in the early morning until he retired in the evenings. We would wash his back in the bath.

    Q: What was O-Sensei’s body like at the time?

    A: When I saw him in the bath the muscles of his upper body were drooping down, and O-Sensei would joke “Look, wings!”. (laughing) In the past that had all been solid and firm, so I think that he must have had really thick arms and an extremely good physique.

    Eiji Tamura's drawing of Morihei UeshibaEiji Tamura’s drawing of Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba

    Q: Now that you mention it, there is a scroll with a drawing of O-Sensei’s body, isn’t there?

    A: That was drawn by a famous artist, but that wasn’t a direct sketch, it was based on the artist’s image of O-Sensei with power in his body, a kind of symbolic image. When I touched his body in the bath his muscles were extremely soft, and when we did flexibility exercises before practice O-Sensei would stretch his body with the students for about thirty minutes. He was so soft that one could hardly believe that he was an old man of more than eighty years. When we did what is now called “Funakogi Undo” (船漕ぎ運動 – “rowing exercise”), but was previously called “Ame-no-torifune” (天之鳥船 – “Heavenly Bird Boat”), his movements were extremely soft.

    Q: Funakogi Undo is an exercise unique to Aikido, isn’t it. What is its actual meaning?

    A: One rows a boat in order to move forward, keeping their eyes turned towards their goal. O-Sensei often called this goal “A world of harmony and unity” (和と統一の世界), in other words, a world without conflict. Then as now, violence and war continue, but I believe that the meaning was for “everybody to row together” with the goal of asking for assistance through Aikido training that a world would come where all of the world’s people could join hands with each other.

    Morito Suganuma - warm-upsMorito Suganuma demonstrating warm-up exercises

    Q: Is that also the reason that we do warm-up exercises together?

    A: Yes, it is. I think that this is an excellent method of creating the unified body that we seek in Aikido, in other words, a body in which the hands, waist and legs are made to operate together.

    Q: Did you get concrete explanations from the Founder?

    A: From a state in which the hands are open, close them firmly and pull them backwards. Conversely, there are exercises in which one thrusts the hands forward while closing and then opens them while pulling backwards. Also, we always practiced what was called “Furitama” (振魂 – “spirit shaking”), in which we clasped our hands in front of our abdomen and shook them. At this time the right hand was on the bottom and the left hand was on the top – in Kototama (言霊) the right represents the body and the left hand represents the mind. We were told “Place your mind on the foundation (the body)” (土台「身体」の上に霊を載せる).

    Q: Are Funakogi Undo and Furitama practiced together as a set?

    A: Yes, that’s right. O-Sensei would always do three sets, with each set consisting of three repititions of Funakogi Undo and one repitition of Furitama as a set.

    Hombu Dojo BonenkaiA Hombu Dojo Bonenkai (Year-end Party). From right to left:
    Masando Sasaki Shihan, Minoru Kurita Shihan, Shizuo Imaizumi Shihan
    Yoshio Kuroiwa Shihan, Seishiro Endo Shihan, Yasuo Kobayashi Shihan
    Morito Suganuma Shihan, Akira Tohei Shihan, Nobuyuki Watanabe Shihan
    Nobuyoshi Tamura Shihan, Seijuro Masuda Shihan, Koretoshi Maruyama Shihan

    Drawn into effortless technique.

    Q: What was the Founder’s daily life and training like at the time?

    A: When the current dojo was completed there was a simple Kamidana in O-Sensei’s room, so before each practice he would would always chant the Norito (Shinto prayers). Then he would go to the dojo. O-Sensei was someone who possessed a unique presence, and just by entering the dojo everything would stop – one sensed some kind of aura emitting from his entire body. The training was extremely severe, but there was kindness in that severity. For example, he was extremely skilled at letting you know where you ought to be, he was very careful about that kind of thing.

    Q: What were your impressions of actually taking ukemi for the Founder?

    A: O-Sensei’s techniques were completely effortless. Even when one was thrown the ukemi had a good feeling. It felt as if one were being absorbed. Even when it is the same technique, when one receives it from someone who has not mastered it there are odd times when there is pain and one has to endure certain things, but there was none of that. His movements were truly effortless. I was fortunate to have been able to receive O-Sensei’s techniques.

    Q: I have heard that the Founder’s techniques were extremely fast…

    A: Yes, they were fast. There are probably not very many people who can move that quickly at that age. During tai-sabaki his entire body would move in an instant – it was the same when he was using a staff or a sword.

    Q: Did he use many weapons?

    A: During practice, in addition to staff and sword, he would also use a folding fan. This may have also been used in place of a tessen (鉄扇 – “iron ribbed fan”), but O-Sensei always carried a folding fan and would often use it to instantly control opponents coming to strike with a sword.

    Morito Suganuma - Atemi in Irimi-nageSuganuma Sensei demonstrates Atemi in Irimi-nage

    Q: I have certainly seen many photos of demonstration in which a folding fan was used to control a sword.

    A: That’s right, those are movements that can also be used with a tessen or with a short sword. Also, he often demonstrated atemi with the folding fan. At the same time as he controlled his opponent’s attack in an instant, he would thrust with the folding fan, saying “Look – you enter here!”. For example, within the flowing movement of Irimi-nage there are a number of places where atemi can be inserted, but it’s so fast that they are difficult to understand, so he would explain them with the folding fan.

    Morihei Ueshiba at McKinley High School 1961Demonstrating with a folding fan
    Nobuyoshi Tamura taking ukemi for Morihei Ueshiba O-Sensei
    McKinley High School Aikido demonstration in 1961, Honolulu Hawaii

    Q: I see. In your case, since you came in with the viewpoint of a competitor in the pole vault, didn’t you feel that there was some “vagueness” in Aikido?

    A: I did feel that way sometimes. (laughing) However, during training in Kokyu-ho when O-Sensei grabbed both my wrists I was instantly unable to move. At the time O-Sensei was 158 centimers tall (5’2″) and he weighed less than sixty kilos (132 lbs), but just by holding me lightly I was completely unable to move. While actually touching hands with that O-Sensei and my sempai I began to feel “there’s a magnitude of difference”. For that reason I thought “I want to be like that someday” and that yearning grew stronger.

    Q: There was some power other than just weight, wasn’t there?

    A: It wasn’t a matter of my wrist hurting, or something like that. It felt as if he used his entire body so efficiently that my center was controlled. Things like Nikyo are certainly techniques that are effective against the wrists, but I think that is a technique that takes one part of your opponent and controls their entire body. So, by just applying a small amount of pain they become unable to move.

    Q: One often hears that the technique of the Founder Ueshiba in his later years was extremely soft…

    A: It wasn’t just being soft. It felt as if in each instant he would be able to move his body freely, and while there were times in which one felt as if they were being absorbed while being thrown, there were also times when one was held down firmly in place.

    Q: So that is “complete freedom” (自由自在)? When one watches films of the Founder in his younger days one can see him holding down people firmly…

    A: There are also some where he appears to run around in a rampage. (laughing) But I believe that O-Sensei’s techniques did not depart from the principles of nature. He moved as his mind directed and that became technique.

    Q: I think that it must also be different depending upon the era during which one learned the Aikido transmitted by the Founder.

    A: I think that is also an issue, but in the end I think that what is important is how each of the Shihan following him took in what they were given. Even Shihan who trained during the same era have different kinds of movement, and I don’t think that one can say which is correct and which is mistaken. If you have ten people none of them will be the same, I think it is the same as that.

    Continued in Part 2…


    Published by: Christopher Li – Honolulu, HI