Category: Interview

Interview with Aikido Shihan Kenji Shimizu – Part 1
Kenji Shimizu (清水健二) in 2007
Was O-Sensei irregular about coming to the dojo?
Yes, he was. When I was actively practicing there he often came and went. When he showed up everyone immediately sat down. At first, I thought that people were being courteous toward him. However, it wasn’t only that. It was also that the practices we were doing were different from what O-Sensei expected us to do. Once he lost his temper at us. No one realized that he had come and he shouted: “What you people are doing is not aikido.” His shout was so powerful it felt like the earth was trembling. He was then in his seventies but his voice nearly pierced our ear drums. Everybody just became quiet and looked gloomy.
“Interview with Kenji Shimizu,” by Stanley Pranin
Kenji Shimizu (清水健二) was born in Fukuoka, Japan in 1940. After starting out with ten years of Judo an acquaintance persuaded him to meet with Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba – impressed with the Founder, he immediately enrolled as one of the last of O-Sensei’s uchi-deshi, in 1963. After the passing of the Founder in 1969 he went on to found his own style of Aikido – Tendo-ryu Aikido (天道流合気道), “School of the Way of Heaven”.
“Tendo” calligraphy
He is the author of “Zen and Aikido” (with Shigeo Kamata) and “Aikido: The Heavenly Road“.
This is the first part of a two part interview with Shimizu Sensei that originally appeared in the July and August 2006 issues of Gekkan Hiden (月刊秘伝 / “Secret Teachings Monthly”), a well known martial arts magazine in Japan.
This interview was also published in a collection of interviews with students of the Founder published in Japanese as 開祖の横顔 (“Profiles of the Founder”) in 2009. There was a short introduction to this work in the article “Morihei Ueshiba – Profiles of the Founder“. A number of English translations of interviews from that collection appeared have appeared previously – Nobuyoshi Tamura Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Hiroshi Isoyama Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Shigenobu Okumura Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Nobuyuki Watanabe Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Masatake Fujita Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2) , Yoshimitsu Yamada Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Kanshu Sunadomari Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Hiroshi Kato Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Yoshio Kuroiwa Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2) and Morito Suganuma (Part 1 | Part 2).
Kenji Shimizu takes ukemi for Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba
Interview with Aikido Shihan Kenji Shimizu – Part 1
Even when one pushed on him O-Sensei would not move, not even an inch.
Q: Thank you for coming today. I’ve heard that you turned to Aikido from Judo, how did that happen?
A: I started Judo when I was thirteen years old. From then I trained for about ten years. I liked Judo, so when I entered the university I had the idea that I would like to specialize in Judo as an instructor. It was then that someone advised me “Judo is certainly spreading around the world, but it’s a sport rather than Budo.”. That person had some connection to O-Sensei, and he recommended that I visit him “Now there is a person who is the last Budoka in Japan. At the present time there is no Budoka greater than him! Would you like to meet him?”. At the time I was under the impression that Judo was the best in Japanese Budo, so I wasn’t very enthusiastic, but I became more and more convinced as we spoke. So it was that I was introduced to Morihei Ueshiba O-Sensei.
Q: What was your first impression when meeting the Founder?
A: In any case, he was completely different from the instructors that I had met previously. I remember the feeling of having met one of the ancient warriors that appear in stories. O-Sensei said “Do you want to try it?”. So right there I enrolled as an uchi-deshi. As a matter of fact, I was the last uchi-deshi, you know. That was in Showa year 38 (1963).
Aikikai Hombu ground breaking ceremony – 1966
Morihei Ueshiba and Kisshomaru Ueshiba – center
Kenji Shimizu – back left
Q: And the Founder was around eighty years old at the time?
A: That’s right. But O-Sensei would never tell anybody his age. He would always say “After I passed seventy I forgot how old I was”.
Q: You enrolled as an uchi-deshi from the very beginning?
A: That’s right. Actually, at that time the Aikikai no longer had an uchi-deshi system. O-Sensei also had a policy of taking no more uchi-deshi. In my case it was really a special exception. For that reason I was serious from the moment of enrollment. There was the fact that I had switched from Judo, and that I was in “active service”, but I became a good practice platform for the students. They would try out their Aikido techniques on me. So my wrists really hurt! There were also many times when I applied techniques that there was a kind of strange resistance, my Judo habits would always come to the fore, and I would reflexively throw them. I don’t know who he heard it from, but Osawa Sensei (大澤喜三郎 – Kisaburo Osawa) gave me a scolding – “This isn’t a Judo dojo!”.
Q: How many years were you an uchi-deshi?
A: I was enrolled at the Aikikai for six and a half years. During that period the time that I spent close to O-Sensei receiving his instruction was three years. That is, and it was the same for all of the uchi-deshi, I was was sent here and there to teach. At Hombu I was often asked by Osawa Sensei to teach in his place, and when I was asked I would accept, saying “Yes, Yes…”. When I think about it now, I was really presumptuous, wasn’t I? The other person was an eighth dan instructor, and I was an untalented uchi-deshi, so normally one would say something like “I’m sorry, but it would be impossible for someone such as me to take your place as an instructor”, but I would always just accept lightly. (laughing)
Q: Was there anything special about your teaching at the time?
A: No, there was nothing like that. However, it may have been that O-Sensei liked my instruction. At the time Aikido was in a transitional period. When I enrolled, if one was asked “What do you do? What’s your job?” there was no way that I could reply “Aikido”. Because nobody had heard of it. If I answered “Aikido” then I would always be asked “What’s that?” next. Making that explanation was really tiresome. That was the kind of era that it was.
Q: Was there some about the Founder that especially left you with an impression?
A: Well…there were so many things that left an impression on me…I don’t know where to start. One day he said “Shimizu, are you free?”, and when I answered “Yes” he sat down in a backless chair and said “My back is tight, could you massage it a little?”. At the beginning, when I pushed on his back lightly, he said “What’s this? You don’t have any strength – push harder!”, so I put more strength into it and pushed on his back strongly but O-Sensei didn’t move at all. He just said “Push harder!” so I added even more strength and pushed on his back, but he didn’t move, not an inch. He was the same during training – O-Sensei would hold up his te-gatana (手刀) in kamae and say “OK, try pushing me!”. In any case, no matter how much of a master one is, he was of such an advanced age that one would think that he would fall over if pushed strongly. However, since he would become angry if we pushed lightly we would push with all of our strength. Even so, he wouldn’t move, not an inch. Thinking about it now, I interpret that to mean that he matched the power of his mind and body to the power of nature, and mobility transformed through the unified body resulted in tremendous power.
Taking ukemi for Morihei Ueshiba around 1965-1966
Taking ukemi for O-Sensei felt good.
Q: What did it feel like to be touched by the Founder?
A: At the time he was already of an advanced age, so his body wasn’t all that strongly muscled. But his basic physique was firm. I thought that he must have been incredible when he was young. Outside of Aikido training he almost never displayed his strength in normal circumstances. In terms of energy (気力), he was strong enough to dislocate your back. For example, when he met young people with no sense of manners he would scold them – ”Rude!” – unapologetically. One day he gave a scolding to a taxi driver and the driver, hearing that voice, leaped out of the car without thinking about it. He turned towards me and asked “Who’s that old man?”.
Q: What was your impression of taking ukemi for the Founder during training and demonstrations?
A: It was extremely easy to take ukemi for him. There aren’t many times that one takes ukemi and it feels good, but O-Sensei’s techniques were like that. The techniques didn’t hold one down stiffly, it felt like you would flow right into an immobilization. Well, how one speaks about this depends upon when they became a student or took ukemi, and there are those who say that the were slammed down hard onto the tatami. My personal impression was that O-Sensei’s techniques were soft and beautiful. I remember this even now, a time when O-Sensei was teaching a single individual (Hidehiko Hyoki – 日能英彦). I was taking ukemi, and as soon as Mr. Hyoki took a break I would spot the opening and impolitely start asking questions. One day I asked “Muna-dori Nikyo is very difficult, isn’t it? When the opponent grasps my lapel firmly I can’t get their hand turned back.”, whereupon O-Sensei’s face seemed to say “What!?” and he said “Well then, grasp my lapel as strongly as you can!”. I grasped his lapel, rolling it in my hand, and O-Sensei turned my hand and the lapel back together in a circle and applied Nikyo to me in an instant. I was really surprised. It’s not the Egg of Columbus, but I guess that when one is shown something like this they think “Indeed!”. But we would always be thrown simply with those methods that wouldn’t normally come to mind. Applied variations. They must have been the results of his long training. My feeling about him was like the saying “Bushido scoffs at knowledge for the sake of knowledge. Knowledge is not the primary goal, it is just a step towards gaining wisdom.”.
Aikikai Hombu groundbreaking demonstration – 1966
Kisaburo Osawa and Kisshomaru Ueshiba, back left
Q: As an uchi-deshi, did you often accompany O-Sensei as an otomo when he went out?
A: Yes, but to be honest, there were many difficult tasks involved. In any case, O-Sensei would always leave earlier than the schedule called for when he went out. From an hour before he would start saying “Not yet?”. I would try to manipulate the numbers a little and say “About thirty more minutes”, but a short time later he’d start saying “Not yet?” again. This would continue four or five times. For example, when we went to Iwama we’d be on the train platform waiting at least an hour early. Then…he’d start with the repetitions of “Not yet?”. To put it simply, he didn’t like to leave himself without some margin for error. But he left himself with a little too much margin. (laughing) On the other hand, I assisted him many times in the bath while we were traveling, and he would never stay in the bath for long. Just as I thought that he had entered the bath he’d be hurrying out. So there was no time to wash his back! I’ve often been told that the bath is a place that leaves vulnerable openings, so perhaps that is a feeling that he shared.
Q: Since the Founder was a pre-war Budoka I think that he must have also had some violent techniques, were you taught any of those?
A: O-Sensei put those aside and we were not taught them. Perhaps it could be said that he kept them for himself. During training O-Sensei would become angry if tried to watch the outer surface of his movements. “Move more! You’re not moving!”, he would say. In any case, he would absolutely not forgive training that did not fit his design. When he became angry he could be extremely threatening. For that reason, I think that Aikido from that time must have been very strong.
“Training was centered around Ni-Dai Doshu Kisshomaru Ueshiba”
Kenji Shimizu – second row left
Uke studies the nage’s kokyu
Q: You studied Judo for ten years before beginning Aikido, were there times that your Judo experience was useful?
A: Yes, there were. Of course, the need for strength in the legs and hips is the same. Judo and Aikido were both originally jujutsu, so they have many points in common. Even when my Judo training could not be useful, it was never wasted. However, in Judo one always pairs with an opponent and then grabs and destabilizes them in order to throw or hold them down. Aikido starts from a greater distance and first separates from the opponent’s attack through tai-sabaki. Even understanding these differences intellectually, at first my body didn’t really follow along. And one more thing. I took a lot of ukemi for O-Sensei, and was made to teach a lot of beginners – I believe that it was because of these two things that I was able to improve. In Judo if one is thrown then they have lost, so there is extremely high resistance to being thrown. In the case of Aikido, if one cannot take ukemi for techniques then they will not improve. That is to say, in Aikido kokyu is important, so learning the kokyu of the uke is also connected to the kokyu of the nage. In ukemi, moving after the technique has become fully effective is too slow. If one practiced Aikido in a competitive format..first you would destroy your body. For that reason, one takes ukemi in order to protect their body in the instant that the technique becomes effective. I had some resistance to that kind of ukemi in the beginning. But as the training continued I think that it gradually sunk in. Ukemi is for protecting oneself, not for just falling on one’s own – if the ukemi does not match the opponent’s kokyu then it has no meaning. For that reason, we are very picky about ukemi in my dojo these days.
Q: What does it mean to do ukemi that matches the opponent’s kokyu?
A: For example, if the wind blows then the branches of a tree will bend, right? When the wind passes they return to their former state. But the branches won’t bend on their own if there isn’t any wind. Ukemi in Aikido is the same, it is cooperative, but you can’t just fall down on your own. I came to understand that from teaching large beginners, and from taking a lot of ukemi for O-Sensei, Ni-Dai Doshu and many other instructors in the beginning. No matter how experienced a shihan might be, if they had poor ukemi then O-Sensei was strict with them. After all, he attached great importance to matching kokyu. I was a new participant, so I certainly had some resistance to instigating the falls myself, but I became used to following the movement of the opponent’s throws. For that reason, when O-Sensei applied techniques he must have felt some of that feedback. When I taught O-Sensei almost never gave me direction, and I think that this may have been the reason for that.
Q: In Judo and Aikido the ukemi is different, did you have to relearn things?
A: It got better naturally. I took a lot of ukemi for O-Sensei, and although he sometimes said “Yes, like that” with regards to my ukemi, he never said “That’s no good”.
Continued in Part 2…
Published by: Christopher Li – Honolulu, HI
November 7, 2016
Interview with Aikido Shihan Morito Suganuma – Part 2
Morito Suganuma and Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba
“I show everybody the secrets everyday”
What I try to keep in mind is to follow O-Sensei’s teachings and philosophy, at least my understanding and interpretation of his teachings. I want to convey what O-Sensei himself taught to Aikido students. The most important thing, as O-Sensei used to say, is don’t get injured, don’t do wrong things, and don’t force techniques. Rather than show how strong you are, cultivate each other, and work together to show Aikido’s good techniques. This is how we become good Aikidoists. This is what O-Sensei said.
O-Sensei also used to say something like all the people in the world should work, hand in hand, to create or develop a peaceful world. This is how we help society to work to achieve the idea of this kind of world. I try to do this through Aikido. When I have a chance, I always tell this to Aikido students.
Interview with Morito Suganuma Shihan
USAF Eastern Region Summer Camp – August 2003
Living and training in Japan we would often say “Kobayashi in the east and Suganuma in the west” – referring to the large networks of Aikido schools established by Yasuo Kobayashi Sensei in eastern Japan and Morito Suganuma Sensei in western Japan.
In 1970, shortly after Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba passed away, Suganuma Sensei was dispatched to Fukuoka by Ni-Dai Doshu Kisshomaru Ueshiba as the Aikikai’s representative for the Kyushu area of Japan. Today the network of schools that he established boasts some 70 dojo and more than 4,000 students.
This is the second part of a two part interview with Suganuma Sensei that originally appeared in the January 2005 issue of Gekkan Hiden (月刊秘伝 / “Secret Teachings Monthly”), a well known martial arts magazine in Japan. You may wish to read Part 1 before reading this section.
This interview was also published in a collection of interviews with students of the Founder published in Japanese as 開祖の横顔 (“Profiles of the Founder”) in 2009. There was a short introduction to this work in the article “Morihei Ueshiba – Profiles of the Founder“. A number of English translations of interviews from that collection appeared have appeared previously – Nobuyoshi Tamura Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Hiroshi Isoyama Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Shigenobu Okumura Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Nobuyuki Watanabe Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Masatake Fujita Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2) , Yoshimitsu Yamada Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Kanshu Sunadomari Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Hiroshi Kato Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2) and Yoshio Kuroiwa Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2).
Morito Suganuma (菅沼守人) Sensei
Interview with Aikido Shihan Morito Suganuma – Part 2
“Shiai” (試合 – “competition) is “shiai” (死合 – ”joining in death”) – an exchange of lives.
Q: Were there many young people among the students at that time?
A: Yes, there were. The Giants coach Hiroshi Arakawa (*Translator’s note – 荒川博, mentioned here）, Hiroshi Hiraoka (*Translator’s note: 平岡煕 – the “father of Japanese baseball”, mentioned here), and Sunao Sonoda (園田直), who would later become the Minister of Health, Labor and Welfare, also received instruction from O-Sensei. Coach Arakawa was extremely enthusiastic about his training and would run to training in the morning (laughing), we would train together. Arakawa-san published a book called “Can you become Sadaharu Oh?” (君は王貞治になれるか), and most of what he wrote there are things from Aikido. It must have had a great influence on the way that he thought about baseball.
Coach Hiroshi Arakawa watches Sadaharu Oh practice cutting – 1964
“Can you become Sadaharu Oh?” (君は王貞治になれるか)
Q: Is there something in particular that you remember from your days as an uchi-deshi?
A: Sensei would speak very quickly in a typical Wakayama accent. The long time students were used to it, but it was difficult for me to understand. One day in the midst of a discussion at the dojo he directed me to do something, but he spoke so quickly that I couldn’t really understand what he meant. I could only understand that he said “go get something“. (laughing) But O-Sensei didn’t like to be asked to repeat himself, so when I cocked my head in puzzlement he shouted at me “read the situation!” (気を読め!). So I said “yes”, but when I brought the usual scroll with the symbolic portrait that I talked about earlier he yelled “Not that!” angrily. (laughing) But after that his mood shifted suddenly and he said “I used to have a body like this…”. When O-Sensei became angry he would become really angry, but he would cool down swiftly and he never held a grudge. His mood changes were sudden.
Q: “Read the situation” seems to be something that the Founder would teach…
A: That’s right. In any case, one really couldn’t ask “what was that?” while he was speaking. I was told, “When you’re told to do something you must react immediately, if you can’t do that then you’ll never be a fully qualified Budoka!”. One can’t just ask carelessly “Sensei, what did you mean?”. That was really a major blunder.
Also, and I remember this clearly even now, he was very strict about time. At demonstrations, even from quite a bit of time before, he would start asking “Are we still OK? Will we make it?”. Also when we would go out someplace he’d say “Always leave with the intention of riding on the previous train”. If there was a train that left at exactly nine o’clock then we’d have to be on the platform in time for the train that left just before that one. My sempai would say “Ichi Kisha Mae” (一汽車前 – “One Train Ahead”). Since one never knew what might happen on the way there we would always make sure that there was extra time – even now I still teach this lesson.
Morito Suganuma and Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba wait for a train
Q: Now that you mention it, I remember seeing a photograph of you holding O-Sensei’s bag on a train platform…
A: Yes, I often accompanied O-Sensei as an “otomo” (“attendant”) when he went out. As I recall now, there was one year that we went to Iwama near the Obon season. Since the steam train was crowded I boarded first and went to look for an open seat, but somehow I lost sight of O-Sensei. (laughing) At the time I hadn’t been an uchi-deshi for very long, and I thought “Oh no, what a disaster!” – though I looked left and right, back and forth, I couldn’t find him anywhere. After a while, at a loss as to what to do, there was nothing else left but to call Hombu Dojo – “Idiot! O-Sensei’s already come back!”. (laughing) I got a vigorous scolding later on.
Q: (laughing) I there something that the Founder said that was especially memorable?
A: One day during morning training one of the beginners said “O-Sensei, instead of always doing the same things, could you teach us some of the secrets every once in a while?”. As I was thinking “he’s going to get angry now…”, O-Sensei just laughed and smiled “I show everybody the secrets everyday”, he said. In other words, the secrets are not any special kind of thing, he meant “the secrets are in the day-to-day repetition”. When I heard that I thought “that’s right!”. Every day’s training was certainly a repetition of basics, but it is because they are important that we repeat them. “When you are lost, return to the basics”, some people say, and even today I keep those two things in mind when I train.
Q: Was there some times that the Founder became particularly angry?
A: Rather than “angry”, I would say that his tone of voice became strongly remonstrative, and that was with regards to competitive contests that tested techniques against one another. “Shiai (“competition”) is “shiai” (“joining in death”), it means an exchange of lives, so it’s not something to participate in lightly for the comparison of strength.”, he would always say. O−Sensei himself lived through the scenes of many battles, so it may be that he was unable to approve of contests for the comparison of strength in this peaceful era.
Aikido’s youth power – from right:
Norihiko Ishihashi Shihan, Nobuyuki Watanabe Shihan, Morito Suganuma Shihan
Hiroshi Arakawa, Kenji Shimizu Shihan, Minoru Kurita Shihan
‘Serious’ means to tighten the gaps
Q: I have heard that you also practice Zen?
A: Our family originally belonged to the Soto Zen Buddhist sect, so I had that connection, and by chance I had a connection to the Zen Master Shinryu Umeda (梅田信隆 – former director of Soto Zen Buddhism), so I became a student in Showa year 56 (1981).
Calligraphy by Shinryu Umeda
「無心なれば大道に帰す」 – “Mushin nareba daido ni kisu”
“Having no mind you return to the Great Way”
Meaning that a mind free of desire and attachments
is the mind of enlightenment.
Q: How is your training going?
A: I have learned many things from both Zen and Umeda Zenji. When I first began I was told “value the present”. “There is no yesterday or tomorrow, what is important is right now. The continuation of the present becomes your life, so make the present the most important.” – I remember those words even now.
Q: What is important for you in the transmission of Aikido as Budo?
A: The technical is important, of course, but first what is important is one’s mental attitude. One’s everyday speech and conduct, their attitude – the importance of “one strike with the hand, one throw with the legs” (一拳手一投足). Also, in the old dojo one day O-Sensei suddenly asked me “Suganuma, do you understand what ‘serious’ is”?” (真面目 – “majime”) – “‘Serious’ means to tighten the gaps – because idiots leave them open.”, I was told. At the time I didn’t really get it, but now I think that it is to correct oneself, regulate oneself, and that from this stems mastery of the etiquette of Budo – that the carriage of one’s body becomes without openings.
Q: In the later years of the Founder the words “softness” and “harmony” were often used, were those also used to make one think of Aikido in terms of Budo?
A: I think that for O-Sensei Aikido was always Budo. Sometimes when he looked in on training he would see the students throwing in Kokyu-nage and say “People don’t fall over that easily!”. (laughing) Of course, forced struggling, or throwing with needless violence is just dangerous. Osawa Sensei (大澤喜三郎 – Kisaburo Osawa) would say “Strong and stupid are different. One’s sensitivity cannot be stupid.”. For that reason, just falling even though the technique is not working is not training. I think that we must sense each other’s power precisely when training so that we can develop together and knead our bodies.
Daruma and calligraphy by Morito Suganuma
「ころがせ、転がせ、まだ角がる」
“I roll and I roll, but I still have corners”
Q: The word “knead” (練る) is also used in arts like Chinese Kempo (*Translator’s note: often in the sense of “temper” or “harden”), how do you understand the meaning here?
A: For example, something that you would want to knead, like a rice cake. We take the individual grains of rice, knead them and knead them, and make them into a sticky rice cake. Human beings bodies are the same way, one takes the disparate pieces and kneads them through Aikido practice until a soft, strong, unified body is made, that is the image. For that reason, one ought not to think about controlling some joint in training – I think that it is important that both the uke and the tori use their entire bodies, sense each other’s power, and knead each other.
Q: That’s a very easy to understand example.
A: That was one of O-Sensei’s teachings, to respect the principles of nature – in other words, not to struggle in one’s movements. When one struggles during their movements it becomes what I mentioned before, we injure each other. Also, not to make unnecessary movements. Not to make one’s training uneven. In other words, not to suddenly stop by training recklessly. I call these the “three nothings” (三無) – no struggling (無理), no unevenness (むら), as much as possible using no waste (無駄).
Q: The “three nothings”? You certainly seem very relaxed, to be speaking like this.
A: Out in society when one says that they are a Budoka it has a strict or frightening image, but I don’t like that very much. In the dojo, and during every day life, I just want to act normally. Because it’s less exhausting that way. (laughing)
O-Sensei often quote Kiichi Hogen (*Translator’s note: see “Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido“), and this is one of the things that he would say:
「来たるを迎え、去るは送る、対すれば相和す。五・五の十、一・九の十、二・八の十。大は方処を絶し、細は微塵に入る。活殺自在」
If it comes meet it, if it leaves, send it on its way, if it opposes then unify it. 5 and 5 are 10, 1 and 9 are 10, 2 and 8 are 10. The large suppresses all, the small enters the microscopic. The power of life and death.
I believe that I would like to create that kind of feeling and that kind of a body.

Gekkan Hiden, January 2005
Published by: Christopher Li – Honolulu, HI

October 1, 2016
Interview with Aikido Shihan Morito Suganuma – Part 1
Morito Suganuma Sensei faces dueling jugglers in Hilo Hawaii – 2013
Morito Suganuma (菅沼守人) was born in Fukushima, Japan in 1942. A regional pole vaulting champion in high school, he moved on to studying Aikido with Nobuyoshi Tamura in 1963 and then entered Aikikai Hombu Dojo in 1967 as one of the last uchi-deshi to train there under Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba.
He is the head of Aikido Shoheijuku, which has a large number of Aikido dojo centered around the Fukuoka area of Kyushu, Japan, and was promoted to 8th Dan by the Aikikai in January 2001.
This is the first part of a two part interview with Suganuma Sensei that originally appeared in the January 2005 issue of Gekkan Hiden (月刊秘伝 / “Secret Teachings Monthly”), a well known martial arts magazine in Japan.
This interview was also published in a collection of interviews with students of the Founder published in Japanese as 開祖の横顔 (“Profiles of the Founder”) in 2009. There was a short introduction to this work in the article “Morihei Ueshiba – Profiles of the Founder“. A number of English translations of interviews from that collection appeared have appeared previously – Nobuyoshi Tamura Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Hiroshi Isoyama Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Shigenobu Okumura Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Nobuyuki Watanabe Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Masatake Fujita Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2) , Yoshimitsu Yamada Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Kanshu Sunadomari Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Hiroshi Kato Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2) and Yoshio Kuroiwa Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2).
Morito Suganuma (菅沼守人) Sensei
Interview with Aikido Shihan Morito Suganuma – Part 1
The Founder’s body was extremely soft.
Q: First, I would like to ask what first inspired you to learn Aikido.
A: At first it was because I read an article about O-Sensei in a magazine when I was in my sixth year of elementary school. After that, I enrolled at the physical education department (*Suganuma Sensei was a pole vaulter) at Juntendo University (順天堂大学 ), but I got injured and ended up enrolling at Asia University (亜細亜大学). There I was able to see the training of the Aikido club with my own eyes, and that was how I began Aikido. That was in Showa year 38 (1963).
Q: What was the instruction like at the university?
A: It was Nobuyoshi Tamura Sensei. Now he is teaching in France.
Q: When did you enroll at Hombu Dojo?
A: I enrolled as an uchi-deshi when I graduated in Showa year 42 (1967). Those who were there around the same time were Seishiro Endo Sensei (遠藤征四郎) and Masatake Fujita (藤田昌武). O-Sensei was 84 years old at the time, I learned from O-Sensei for the next two years, until he passed away.
Q: You were living in the dojo, not commuting from outside?
A: That was just at the time when they were rebuilding the dojo, so we rented rooms nearby. When they rebuilt the dojo they first began with O-Sensei’s living quarters, so O-Sensei would go back and forth between Iwama and Hombu Dojo, and would stay in the office of the old dojo. At those times we would massage O-Sensei’s fingers and shoulders until he went to sleep. So we would be with him the entire time from when he arose in the early morning until he retired in the evenings. We would wash his back in the bath.
Q: What was O-Sensei’s body like at the time?
A: When I saw him in the bath the muscles of his upper body were drooping down, and O-Sensei would joke “Look, wings!”. (laughing) In the past that had all been solid and firm, so I think that he must have had really thick arms and an extremely good physique.
Eiji Tamura’s drawing of Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba
Q: Now that you mention it, there is a scroll with a drawing of O-Sensei’s body, isn’t there?
A: That was drawn by a famous artist, but that wasn’t a direct sketch, it was based on the artist’s image of O-Sensei with power in his body, a kind of symbolic image. When I touched his body in the bath his muscles were extremely soft, and when we did flexibility exercises before practice O-Sensei would stretch his body with the students for about thirty minutes. He was so soft that one could hardly believe that he was an old man of more than eighty years. When we did what is now called “Funakogi Undo” (船漕ぎ運動 – “rowing exercise”), but was previously called “Ame-no-torifune” (天之鳥船 – “Heavenly Bird Boat”), his movements were extremely soft.
Q: Funakogi Undo is an exercise unique to Aikido, isn’t it. What is its actual meaning?
A: One rows a boat in order to move forward, keeping their eyes turned towards their goal. O-Sensei often called this goal “A world of harmony and unity” (和と統一の世界), in other words, a world without conflict. Then as now, violence and war continue, but I believe that the meaning was for “everybody to row together” with the goal of asking for assistance through Aikido training that a world would come where all of the world’s people could join hands with each other.
Morito Suganuma demonstrating warm-up exercises
Q: Is that also the reason that we do warm-up exercises together?
A: Yes, it is. I think that this is an excellent method of creating the unified body that we seek in Aikido, in other words, a body in which the hands, waist and legs are made to operate together.
Q: Did you get concrete explanations from the Founder?
A: From a state in which the hands are open, close them firmly and pull them backwards. Conversely, there are exercises in which one thrusts the hands forward while closing and then opens them while pulling backwards. Also, we always practiced what was called “Furitama” (振魂 – “spirit shaking”), in which we clasped our hands in front of our abdomen and shook them. At this time the right hand was on the bottom and the left hand was on the top – in Kototama (言霊) the right represents the body and the left hand represents the mind. We were told “Place your mind on the foundation (the body)” (土台「身体」の上に霊を載せる).
Q: Are Funakogi Undo and Furitama practiced together as a set?
A: Yes, that’s right. O-Sensei would always do three sets, with each set consisting of three repititions of Funakogi Undo and one repitition of Furitama as a set.
A Hombu Dojo Bonenkai (Year-end Party). From right to left:
Masando Sasaki Shihan, Minoru Kurita Shihan, Shizuo Imaizumi Shihan
Yoshio Kuroiwa Shihan, Seishiro Endo Shihan, Yasuo Kobayashi Shihan
Morito Suganuma Shihan, Akira Tohei Shihan, Nobuyuki Watanabe Shihan
Nobuyoshi Tamura Shihan, Seijuro Masuda Shihan, Koretoshi Maruyama Shihan
Drawn into effortless technique.
Q: What was the Founder’s daily life and training like at the time?
A: When the current dojo was completed there was a simple Kamidana in O-Sensei’s room, so before each practice he would would always chant the Norito (Shinto prayers). Then he would go to the dojo. O-Sensei was someone who possessed a unique presence, and just by entering the dojo everything would stop – one sensed some kind of aura emitting from his entire body. The training was extremely severe, but there was kindness in that severity. For example, he was extremely skilled at letting you know where you ought to be, he was very careful about that kind of thing.
Q: What were your impressions of actually taking ukemi for the Founder?
A: O-Sensei’s techniques were completely effortless. Even when one was thrown the ukemi had a good feeling. It felt as if one were being absorbed. Even when it is the same technique, when one receives it from someone who has not mastered it there are odd times when there is pain and one has to endure certain things, but there was none of that. His movements were truly effortless. I was fortunate to have been able to receive O-Sensei’s techniques.
Q: I have heard that the Founder’s techniques were extremely fast…
A: Yes, they were fast. There are probably not very many people who can move that quickly at that age. During tai-sabaki his entire body would move in an instant – it was the same when he was using a staff or a sword.
Q: Did he use many weapons?
A: During practice, in addition to staff and sword, he would also use a folding fan. This may have also been used in place of a tessen (鉄扇 – “iron ribbed fan”), but O-Sensei always carried a folding fan and would often use it to instantly control opponents coming to strike with a sword.
Suganuma Sensei demonstrates Atemi in Irimi-nage
Q: I have certainly seen many photos of demonstration in which a folding fan was used to control a sword.
A: That’s right, those are movements that can also be used with a tessen or with a short sword. Also, he often demonstrated atemi with the folding fan. At the same time as he controlled his opponent’s attack in an instant, he would thrust with the folding fan, saying “Look – you enter here!”. For example, within the flowing movement of Irimi-nage there are a number of places where atemi can be inserted, but it’s so fast that they are difficult to understand, so he would explain them with the folding fan.
Demonstrating with a folding fan
Nobuyoshi Tamura taking ukemi for Morihei Ueshiba O-Sensei
McKinley High School Aikido demonstration in 1961, Honolulu Hawaii
Q: I see. In your case, since you came in with the viewpoint of a competitor in the pole vault, didn’t you feel that there was some “vagueness” in Aikido?
A: I did feel that way sometimes. (laughing) However, during training in Kokyu-ho when O-Sensei grabbed both my wrists I was instantly unable to move. At the time O-Sensei was 158 centimers tall (5’2″) and he weighed less than sixty kilos (132 lbs), but just by holding me lightly I was completely unable to move. While actually touching hands with that O-Sensei and my sempai I began to feel “there’s a magnitude of difference”. For that reason I thought “I want to be like that someday” and that yearning grew stronger.
Q: There was some power other than just weight, wasn’t there?
A: It wasn’t a matter of my wrist hurting, or something like that. It felt as if he used his entire body so efficiently that my center was controlled. Things like Nikyo are certainly techniques that are effective against the wrists, but I think that is a technique that takes one part of your opponent and controls their entire body. So, by just applying a small amount of pain they become unable to move.
Q: One often hears that the technique of the Founder Ueshiba in his later years was extremely soft…
A: It wasn’t just being soft. It felt as if in each instant he would be able to move his body freely, and while there were times in which one felt as if they were being absorbed while being thrown, there were also times when one was held down firmly in place.
Q: So that is “complete freedom” (自由自在)? When one watches films of the Founder in his younger days one can see him holding down people firmly…
A: There are also some where he appears to run around in a rampage. (laughing) But I believe that O-Sensei’s techniques did not depart from the principles of nature. He moved as his mind directed and that became technique.
Q: I think that it must also be different depending upon the era during which one learned the Aikido transmitted by the Founder.
A: I think that is also an issue, but in the end I think that what is important is how each of the Shihan following him took in what they were given. Even Shihan who trained during the same era have different kinds of movement, and I don’t think that one can say which is correct and which is mistaken. If you have ten people none of them will be the same, I think it is the same as that.
Continued in Part 2…
Published by: Christopher Li – Honolulu, HI
September 16, 2016
Interview with Hiroshi Sagawa and 10th Gen Shihan Tatsuo Kimura – Part 4
Yukiyoshi Sagawa and Kimura Tatsuo
on the cover of Aiki News 117 – the Yukiyoshi Sagawa memorial issue
I also applied techniques to Mr. Pranin when he was collecting materials for a memorial issue on Sagawa Shihan for Aiki News 117. His impression at the time was, “When I tested the small, stubborn 50-year-old Kimura Sensei, I was completely controlled by him. I attempted to grab Sensei’s arm many times while seated, but I couldn’t grab him strongly. My power of resistance was neutralized by the use of Sensei’s stance and internal energy. While I was being thrown backward repeatedly I couldn’t tell when the technique was beginning or ending. The energy released from his center was gushing out of his arms. Kimura Sensei clearly demonstrated to us the world of energy that exceeds the physical dimension. This energy did not affect the state of the body and I thought that it was possible to execute highly effective techniques that went beyond the bounds of simple techniques.”
However, then it seems that Mr. Pranin thought that this was merely some form of energy and, given my level at that time, he was not persuaded. On his third visit, he said for the first time that he was truly convinced of Sagawa Sensei’s Aiki.
– Tatsuo Kimura
Discovering Aiki My 20 Years with Yukiyoshi Sagawa Sensei
Yukiyoshi Sagawa was one of the longest students of Daito-ryu Chuku-no-so Sokaku Takeda, who was also the teacher of Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba. Not only was he was asked to become the Soke of Daito-ryu by the Takeda family (he eventually refused), but at one time, around 1956, an agreement was made for Sagawa to become an instructor at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo (this, also, he refused eventually).
Yukiyoshi Sagawa’s younger brother and favorite sibling, Hiroshi Sagawa (佐川廣), was born in Shimo-yubetsu Hokkaido in 1909 (Meiji Year 42) into a family in which both his father and his elder brother trained extensively with Sokaku Takeda.
Tatsuo Kimura (木村達雄) is one of three of Yukiyoshi Sagawa Sohan’s students to have completed the 10th Gen level of techniques (the techniques in Sagawa Dojo that Sagawa Sensei learned from Sokaku Takeda were organized into ten levels, or “Gen” / 元).
Born in Tokyo Japan in 1947, Kimura Sensei is a well known mathematician and professor at Tsukuba University. He published two books about Sagawa Sohan (宗範) that have been translated into English (the latter one only partially) – “Transparent Power (透明な力)” and “Discovering Aiki My 20 Years with Yukiyoshi Sagawa Sensei (合気修得への道―佐川幸義先生に就いた二十年)”. He also holds a third-dan in kendo and a fifth-dan in Aikido, which he studied under Seigo Yamaguchi (山口清吾).
This is the fourth and final section of the English translation of an interview conducted in Japanese by Kuni Azumi (安積邦) with Hiroshi Sagawa and Tatsuo Kimura that previously appeared in the popular martial arts magazine Gekkan Hiden (月刊秘伝 / “Secret Teachings Monthly”) in 2001. You may wish to read Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3 before reading this section.
You may also be interested in another interview with Kimura Sensei that appeared on the Aikido Sangenkai blog previously – “Yukiyoshi Sagawa’s Aiki, a true portrait of Transparent Power – Interview with Tatsuo Kimura, Part 1 and Part 2.
(more…)
January 9, 2016
Interview with Hiroshi Sagawa and 10th Gen Shihan Tatsuo Kimura – Part 3
Tatsuo Kimura and Seigo Yamaguchi in Karuizawa, 1968
“That was how I entered the University of Tokyo and became a formal student of Seigo Yamaguchi Sensei beginning Aikido practice at Ikenoue located next to the Komaba-Todai-mae train station. During that time, I was often with Yamaguchi Sensei all day. He would many times say that his dream was to find some method to deal with any power no matter how strong without using strength. He said he was searching to find this method. At some point, this became my own dream. However, it was like the blue bird in the story of M. Maeterlinck, but it seemed that this was not something that could be realized in this world. Later, I will mention that such a method that answered Yamaguchi Sensei’s dream does indeed exist in this world.”

– Tatsuo Kimura
Discovering Aiki My 20 Years with Yukiyoshi Sagawa Sensei
Yukiyoshi Sagawa often traveled as an attendant to his teacher, Daito-ryu Chuku-no-so Sokaku Takeda, who was also the teacher of Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba. At one time, around 1956, an agreement was made for Sagawa to become an instructor at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo, but he took exception to some remarks about Sokaku Takeda made by Morihei Ueshiba in an interview with the Yomiuri Shimbun around that time and changed his mind.
Yukiyoshi Sagawa’s younger brother and favorite sibling, Hiroshi Sagawa (佐川廣), was born in Shimo-yubetsu Hokkaido in 1909 (Meiji Year 42) into a family in which both his father and his elder brother trained extensively with Sokaku Takeda.
Tatsuo Kimura (木村達雄) is one of three of Yukiyoshi Sagawa Sohan’s students to have completed the 10th Gen level of techniques (the techniques in Sagawa Dojo that Sagawa Sensei learned from Sokaku Takeda were organized into ten levels, or “Gen” / 元).
Born in Tokyo Japan in 1947, Kimura Sensei is a well known mathematician and professor at Tsukuba University. He published two books about Sagawa Sohan (宗範) that have been translated into English (the latter one only partially) – “Transparent Power (透明な力)” and “Discovering Aiki My 20 Years with Yukiyoshi Sagawa Sensei (合気修得への道―佐川幸義先生に就いた二十年)”. He also holds a third-dan in kendo and a fifth-dan in Aikido, which he studied under Seigo Yamaguchi (山口清吾).
This is part 3 of the English translation of an interview conducted in Japanese by Kuni Azumi (安積邦) with Hiroshi Sagawa and Tatsuo Kimura that previously appeared in the popular martial arts magazine Gekkan Hiden (月刊秘伝 / “Secret Teachings Monthly”) in 2001. You may wish to read Part 1 and Part 2 before reading this section.
You may also be interested in another interview with Kimura Sensei that appeared on the Aikido Sangenkai blog previously – “Yukiyoshi Sagawa’s Aiki, a true portrait of Transparent Power – Interview with Tatsuo Kimura, Part 1 and Part 2.
Aiki News issues 140 and 141 – Tatsuo Kimura and Yukiyoshi Sagawa
Interview with Hiroshi Sagawa and 10th Gen Shihan Tatsuo Kimura, Part 3
The Unknown Side Benefits of Aiki
Azumi: Clearly and unmistakably, the one who experienced Sagawa Sohan’s Aiki the most times must be Kimura Sensei, who is sitting right here. However Kimura Sensei speaks about Aiki, I think that it is of great interest even to those who are not training in Aiki, is that so?
Kimura: Once one experiences Aiki it sparks an incredibly strong interest. One becomes unable to be thrown by techniques without Aiki. In Sagawa Dojo there was a very large person who Sensei left completely untouched for about five years. Through that time, no matter how much he struggled I was able to throw him. Then Sensei said that he wanted to forge him into a strong member of the dojo. Sagawa Sensei began to throw him, and within two weeks most of the people in the dojo became unable to apply techniques to him. (laughing)
Azumi: Do things like that…really happen?
Kimura: Therefore, the meaning of those people who have been thrown by Sagawa Sensei becoming unthrowable becomes extremely important. However, Sensei would select people, so it’s not as if everybody in the dojo was thrown.
Azumi: Does that mean that something would happen inside their bodies?
Yukiyoshi Sagawa Demonstrates Aiki-age
Kimura: Hmm…what could it be? (laughing) But I can say this. In other words, it is that when one experiences Aiki one feels that it is a truly great way of being handled. When that happens it is that everything else becomes uncomfortable – that conveys a feeling of being forced, and the body becomes unwilling to accept it. As I said before, normally it is difficult to imagine that the techniques of people who can throw you with one finger, like the sempai in the Sagawa Dojo, become ineffective. Just the same, no matter how good a person’s techniques are, they are manifestly different from Sagawa Sensei’s. One doesn’t understand at the beginning. As one’s abilities gradually increase, the difference becomes clear. In time, the body completely refuses to receive other’s techniques – “that’s not going to work”. However, saying that one cannot be thrown and saying that one can throw another person are two separate issues. Just because one’s body has become strong doesn’t mean that one can throw a strong person.
Azumi: Yes, I suppose so.
Kimura: Further, in the magnificence of Sagawa Sensei’s bujutsu, there is one more thing that is not well known.
Azumi: Oh? What’s that?
Kimura: The body becomes energetic and invigorated.
Azumi: It becomes energetic?
Kimura: Yes. The effects are similar to the those things recently being called “healing”. (Translator’s Note: there was a “healing boom” in Japan starting in the 1980’s that spurred many products and services aimed at enhancing general psychological well-being.)
Azumi. Ah. Yes.
Kimura: Actually, when one received Sagawa Sensei’s technique it felt really wonderful. Even now, I think that must have really been healing. When one was thrown it penetrated right through into your core. It felt as if something was being purified. Strength would well up and one would become incredibly energized. In fact, a number of times during training after being thrown by Sagawa Sensei my head would start to start to work oddly well, and on the way home I would be able to solve mathematical equations (Note: Kimura Sensei is a professor of mathematics at Tsukuba University. Additionally, he is the mathematics department head!). This happened to me many times. (laughing)
Azumi: It seems as if there is an injection of energy…
Kimura: Yes! It feels as if a fire has passed through the inside of your body. Aiki passes through the body. It’s not external, it enters into one’s body so one becomes extremely energized. It’s natural, so one feels good. There is absolutely nothing that feels forced! However severely one is thrown. It feels like a technique that happens while one is still thinking “What!?!” (and they are already thrown).
Azumi: Do you think that Sokaku’s Aiki had the same kind of “side benefits”?
Kimura: Whether or not Takeda Sensei got to that point or not…I can’t say. Of course, the throwing the opponent instantly with Aiki that forms the foundation must be absolutely the same.
Sagawa: With both Takeda Sensei and my brother, when Aiki was applied one’s strength would be removed.
Kimura: Sagawa Sensei said that Takeda Sensei would throw with a conventional technique after removing their power (with Aiki), but there was even further development (by Sagawa Sensei) from there. He made a great discovery concerning Aiki when he was seventy years old. By the way, I first met Sensei when he was seventy-six years old, from that time – that is, from the beginning, he was incredible. (laughing)
Azumi: (laughing)
True Throws – the Intensity of the Last Practice
Kimura: When I was thrown by Sagawa Sensei, I experienced truly being thrown for the first time. Until that time I did Aikido and it felt as if I was taking ukemi, but with Sagawa Sensei’s throws I couldn’t understand where I would be thrown – at first it was extremely frightening. There was no way to prepare oneself, since one would be thrown flying in an instant it was a real surprise. In any case, it was all that one could do just to avoid hitting one’s head. Even so, at the last practice, just before Sensei passed away, I hit my head three times.
Azumi: In the at least twenty years that he taught you, there wasn’t even a slight decline in Sagawa Sensei’s technique?
Kimura: A decline? Although each time I thought that a superior technique was inconceivable, it was continuously the case that each time I went there was something that was clearly superior to the previous time. Furthermore, I had been building strength over that period of twenty years. In spite of that, the power of his throws never changed.
Azumi: However, you hit your head even up until that last practice shortly before he passed away? Even though you are one of only three 10th Gen shihan?
Kimura: That’s how intense that last practice was. I think that Sagawa Sensei probably staked his life on it for us.
Yukiyoshi Sagawa demonstrating Hiden Ashi no Aiki (秘伝足の合気)
What is the Aiki Body?
Sagawa: Kimura-san probably thinks the same way, but his body was like steel – although one tried to immobilize him he could not be immobilized. If one goes up to here with an untrained person it’s all over, but with someone like Kimura-san it really can’t be applied. There were times that I tried to immobilize my brother, but I couldn’t do it, you know. It felt as if I were pulling on steel, it didn’t feel as if I were immobilizing him at all.
Kimura: One time we paired up like Sumo wrestlers and Sagawa Sensei told me to come at him.
Azumi: Yes…
Kimura: At the moment that we met there was a shock.
Azumi: Ei? What was it like?
Kimura: “Hey, hey, what’s this!?!”. That Sensei’s body was completely different from ours came through in a very real and emphatic manner. It felt as if I had grabbed on to some strange object. (In severe training) the body is really like steel…it felt as if I were touching something of a completely different quality, something with an extremely high density.
Azumi: The quality was completely different? Dense?
Kimura: In other words, how can I put this – his body density was completely different. It was so dense that it seemed as if one became like paper and flipped away when touched. This was when he was well past ninety years old! Anyway, he had an amazing body…it’s difficult to express it in words.
Azumi: I think that there are many readers who are curious about Sagawa Sensei’s body. Relating to that, it must have been in Sagawa Sohan’s later years, but there was a time when he injured his tendons from too much conditioning and was unable to turn off the faucet of a sink….
Kimura: That’s true. Sensei told me that in the end “I couldn’t do anything, all that I could do was throw people“. (laughing)
Azumi: He couldn’t do anything but throw people….. (speechless)
Kimura: He couldn’t even pull the tab on the pop-top of a can of juice. But although he couldn’t open a pop-top, when one was caught by that finger they couldn’t move (smiling)….”What’s going on?”.
Azumi:……
Kimura: Even more mysteriously, in his very last years there were some times when Sensei’s walking was a little unsteady. He’d wobble around, and when others watched they would become a little bit worried. At that time he’d walk towards you with a gait that looked as if he was just about to topple over. After he sat in his wheel chair he’d say “Kimura! Come grab my legs!”. At first I held back, but sure enough (smiling) I was surprised to be thrown flying even further than usual. One more time, and this time I grabbed him strongly – and I was handled even more severely. ….Ahh, that really surprised me (embarrassed grin) – “What happened with Sensei’s legs? They were completely emaciated!”.
Yukiyoshi Sagawa and Tatsuo Kimura – Ashi no Aiki, 1996
Azumi: Ahh (surprised). Since, to all appearances, a physical decline equivalent to his age can be observed, normally that would be inconceivable, wouldn’t it?
Kimura: So that means – they are the same legs, but the wobbling walk and the strength to throw a person flying are completely different things. One could say that the level of the principles behind their movements are different.
Kinji Sakuma (佐久間錦二) demonstrates the Shiko exercise
taught directly to him by Yukiyoshi Sagawa.
Sagawa Sohan would do these several thousand times each day.
Legendary Solo training
Azumi: From what I have heard, from the parade of anecdotes, he was overwhelming. However, behind the scenes of that severity, I have been told that there was special conditioning that Sagawa Sohan did alone and did not show to other people.
Sagawa: He was always doing those exercises! But it certainly seemed as if he didn’t want to be seen. And then he would note them in his diary each day.
Azumi: Was kind of things were written in his diary?
Sagawa: Things like the number of times that he had trained. What he did and how many times, how his suburi went, how much bojutsu he did, and things like that. He’d write that he did one thousand push-ups or today he did two thousand push-ups, and so forth.
Kimura: It (Sagawa Sensei’s conditioning) was usually in units of one-thousand. Actually, and it was only twice, I saw it myself.
Azumi: Is that right!?!
Kimura: I don’t know if I can talk about this…..(thinks for a moment).
Azumi: Please, please! (smiling)
Kimura: ….(embarrassed grin) It was a time right after I started when there were still very few students, only three or four. On the grounds of Sagawa Sensei’s home there was a spot basking in the sun that was just perfect. On that day I went a little earlier than usual to practice, and Sensei was doing some kind of exercise there by himself. That was the first time. The other time was when Sensei’s home was undergoing some construction. The gardeners were taking a long time to finish up, so he shook the numbness out of his limbs and started his own training right there. Later on Sensei said “I did my exercises right in front of them!”.
Azumi: What kind of conditioning did Sagawa Sensei do?
Kimura: …………. Actually, there were times that I heard (from Sensei) about his conditioning. But that was when the two of us were alone, and Sensei spoke of it unintentionally.
Azumi: What were the specifics?
Kimura: For example, “The bokken is really used like this…” – things like that.
Azumi: ………….
Kimura: However, his way of thinking was so completely different that I was surprised. Perhaps one could say that it was a completely separate thing from (the way of thinking of) conventional conditioning.
To be continued in Part 4, with a discussion what happened inside of Sagawa Sohan’s body…
Published by: Christopher Li – Honolulu, HI

December 12, 2015