Category: Interview

Budoka no Kotae – Talking to Morihiro Saito Sensei, Part 2
Morihiro Saito – Traditional Aikido Volume 4
When O-Sensei was not in Iwama, I was in charge of the teaching. I do not know who taught in Hombu dojo when O-Sensei was not there for obvious reasons, I was in Iwama. I rarely went to Hombu dojo. During 1960-61 O-Sensei was very vital. He then sometimes went to Tokyo to teach Aikido, though not many days would pass before students of the Hombu Dojo called me asking me to take O-Sensei home! O-Sensei was giving them a hard time, scolding them for not practising the correct way. In Iwama O-Sensei used to do his own practise in the mornings and then I was the only student to take part. In return for his special teaching I worked in O-Sensei’s farm.
Interview with Morihiro Saito Sensei by Mats Alexandersson
Morihiro Saito Sensei was born on March 31, 1928 in a farming village near the Iwama dojo where he would spend more than twenty years training directly with Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba. Due to his 24-hour on and 24-hour off working shift with the Japanese National Railroad he was able to spend long periods of time alone with Morihei Ueshiba as his student and training partner – particularly as the Founder formulated his post-war system of weapons training. Early morning classes were devoted to prayer at the Aiki Shrine followed by weapons practice, the study of Aiki-Ken and Aiki-Jo and their relationship to empty-handed techniques.
Morihiro Saito acted as the guardian of the Aiki Shrine until his passing in 2002. He is famous for his dedication to preserving the exact form of Morihei Ueshiba’s techniques as he was taught them during his training under him in Iwama.
This is the second section of the English translation of a three part interview that originally appeared in “Answers from Budoka” (“Budoka no Kotae” / 武道家の答え), published by BAB Japan in 2006. You may wish to read Part 1 before reading this section.
Morihiro Saito and Morihei Ueshiba
Tanren Uchi (“forge cutting”) in Iwama, 1955
Budoka no Kotae – Talking to Morihiro Saito Sensei, Part 2
Q: Is that everyday?
A: Yes. Mondays and holidays are off, but there are no days off for the uchi-deshi. They have training in the morning, for the first half of the day. In the evening, together with the sumi-komi (live-in) students, about thirty of forty students gather together.
Q: The dojo must get full, doesn’t it?
A: Right now there are ten people with just the sumi-komi students alone. They take their meals here, and they just reimburse us for the actual costs. But when they cook together a lot of problems come up! They come from different countries, there are people who don’t eat meat, or people who don’t eat fish.
Q: Especially with religious considerations, foreigners who are looking into things like Zen often don’t eat meat or fish, right?
A: That’s why I make it a condition of entrance that they not bring religion or politics with them. There are places in foreign countries that fight wars over religious differences, but here we function with absolutely no relation to that. The Kami-sama are enshrined in the dojo, but those Kami-sama have a connection to Budo that is not religious. They have been worshipped by warriors since ancient times, so there is no religious atmosphere. Everybody faces the front without reluctance, bows and claps their hands before starting practice.
Q: What about you? Is there some religion like Soto Zen Buddhism that has been passed down to you from your ancestors?
Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba’s grave in Kozanji
A: I was born into Shingon Buddhism, but there was no cemetery at that temple. A Soto Zen Buddhist temple nearby made a nice cemetery, so after I moved there I became a Soto Zen Buddhist. The Founder is now buried in a Shingon Buddhist temple in Tanabe, Wakayama called Kozanji (高山寺). One of his last wishes was “make me a grave here”, but for some reason Ni-Dai (Kisshomaru Ueshiba) had a grave in Wakayama Prefecture. That’s why people can’t take a day trip to visit the grave. It’s really pretty tough to get all the way to Wakayama.
In my case, since this was the Founder’s dojo, I believed that it is my responsibility to transmit what I was taught by the Founder. At one time a lot of things were said, but opinions have changed, and the number of requests to come here have greatly increased.
We first built a foundation of static training (個体稽古). Then the method built in stages into flowing techniques and then throwing without touching.
Q: Both here and Hombu Dojo must each have their own good points, this is is a wonderful place, isn’t it?
A: Any path is the same, but in those days the method of teaching was differentiated depending upon the dojo.
Q: Differentiated in what way?
A: Rather than saying that it was differentiated, it may be that the teaching became differentiated. In the end, in a place where one teaches for four days, or a place where one teaches for one week, or a place where one teaches 365 days a year the method of teaching changes.
Q: How was the teaching done here?
A: As you might expect, we first built a foundation of static training (個体稽古). Then the method built in stages into flowing techniques and then throwing without touching. Flowing techniques were from third-dan, so in the beginning we were only allowed to do static training, but now flowing training is the primary focus in Tokyo.
When one uses strength in Tokyo they get scolded. That’s the difference. We were taught to hold on strongly, to hold firmly in grabbing techniques.
Further, the Founder always emphasized strongly in his teaching that the sword, the staff and empty hand techniques are one thing. We are doing it that way, but in Tokyo the sword and the staff are not taught at all.
Q: Not at all?
A: They don’t teach it at all. For that reason, the fact of the matter is that high ranking students in Tokyo go to Iaido to learn the sword, or Muso-ryu (Shinto Muso-ryu Jodo) to learn the staff. The Founder did not teach either the sword or the staff in Tokyo. Here he taught everything from the basics on up…. We’re in the middle of student camps right now, students from Osaka Prefecture University were here and tonight students from Tokushima University will be coming. We’ll continue with the camps until the beginning of April.
Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba with students from Meiji University in Iwama
Yasuo Kobayashi – front, second from right
Q: How many people come from each university?
A: If too many come then we can’t accommodate them, so we limit it to about twenty people. Ibaraki University, Japan University, MIyagi University of Education, Tohoku University, Iwate University, Hirosaki University, the other day the students from Osaka Prefecture University went home, tonight Tokushima University comes, and when they’re finished Kanagawa University and Aichi University will come and then we’ll finally be done.
Three or four nights, or at the most five nights. We have all of the necessities for preparing meals, so the students go shopping and cook their own food.
Q: And they are normally each taught by the shihan in their area?
A: Yes, that’s right.
Q: Are those shihan very junior to you?
A: Yes, there aren’t very many people senior to me.
Q: It must be very exciting for them to come here, isn’t it?
A: Of course, since this was the dojo where the Founder performed his shugyo. But was that Tanabe? Some place inconvenient. Ha-ha-ha, in the morning they train outside swinging the sword and the staff. In the evening they train with the regular students. So there are more than sixty people and nobody can move! Ha-ha-ha-ha.
Q: Is that so?
A: Previously we had thirty-six mats (Note: tatami mats, about three feet by six feet each), but when the students began to come, the Founder in his later years said to expand that and we expanded the mat space. This is sixy mats, and I’m feeling that it would be good to have at least a hundred. But there are methods of training, no matter how tight the space is.
“The basic principle of Aikido is just to attack.”
Q: Is exchanging techniques with the ordinary students helpful to you?
A: For that reason, they go home happy.
Q: How does that work? In terms of level.
A: Depending upon the school it can be very different. Also, the teachers who bring students here are very broad minded! Because there are also many shihan who tell their students not to come here. Many of those are in Hombu in Tokyo – “Don’t go to Iwama!”, they say. A shihan at one of the universities is also an instructor at Hombu, but he says “Don’t go to Iwama!” and doesn’t allow his students to come here. Because we do static training here. When they learn and then go home it’s difficult to train with them.
Q: Subtle differences emerge?
A: Yes, they do. It’s a little embarrassing to talk about, but all paths tend to split in multiple directions…
Q: Looking at things in the long term, are there clear differences and destinations depending upon whether one does static practice or soft practice?
A: A clear result emerges! Oh yes, during combined training, it can be clearly seen there. It’s not even worth arguing about.
Morihei Ueshiba initiates with an attack
Budo – Moritaka Ueshiba’s 1938 Technical Manual
The Budo in which one attacks first
Q: By the way, many people say “in the Budo called Aikido there are no attacking techniques.”?
A: No, that’s ridiculous, the basic principle of Aikido is just to attack. Rather than talking about striking, by “attack” we mean that the basic principle is to strike the opponent and draw them out. It’s not a crushing blow, one enters in flash and when the opponent moves to counter they must extend their hand. To trap that hand is a basic principle.
Q: That makes sense, doesn’t it?
A: There are many places that don’t know this and practice by just waiting for the other person to come strike. The basic principle is different. Shomenuchi, you know, all starts with with an attack from my side. Like the example in this book, one strikes and moves forward, then grabs their chest.
Q: I see, One strikes from their side and then makes them receive the attack…this is a precondition.
A: Also right here in the Founder’s book it says “Move forward from your side and attack”. Recently people from that other school all said there are no attacks in Aikido, but that is mistaken. The basic principle is to attack… It is said “There is no defense that surpasses an attack” (攻撃に勝る防御なし) – at least in the case of shomenuchi, that is an attack.
Q: Is what you’re calling an attack different than what you’d see in the case of combat sports?
A: It’s different. It’s a matter of drawing out the opponent’s Ki, or absorbing their feelings, or matching with them, or connecting with them, and then controlling them.
Demonstration for the Jieitai (“Self Defense Forces)
Morihiro Saito and Morihei Ueshiba, 1955
Aikido is bodywork like swordwork
(and swordwork like bodywork)
Q: When you do that, is it also possible to explain that in the context of the so-called combat arts?
A: Yes, when one really moves in accordance to the principles, the movement of one against many is connected to the handling of the sword, and connected to the movements of the staff. For that reason, in Aikido one must also train in sword and staff that is specifically for Aikido. Whichever one you omit, your Aikido will not be complete.
It may be annoying for me to repeat this, but that group in Tokyo, perhaps because they have too much pride, don’t come here to learn. They learn the sword through Iaido and the staff through Muso-ryu. In Iaido it’s like the sword is put against the waist. In Aikido we do it while twisting the hips. It’s the opposite! In Iai one thrusts the hips forward and then draws them back in a flash, but in the sword of Aikido we twist the hips and pull.
Iaido is a wonderful Budo, but in the case of Aikido the meaning and the goals are different, so they are incompatible. Further, in the end the method of using the staff in Aikido and Muso-ryu is different. Because in Aikido the unified principles of bodywork like swordwork and swordwork like bodywork are one.
Q: Here everything is like that?
A: That’s how we are doing it. This may be the only place in the world. However, the Founder taught everything from these kinds of basics here, he didn’t teach them in Tokyo.
Continued in Part 3…
Published by: Christopher Li – Honolulu, HI
August 4, 2017
Budoka no Kotae – Talking to Morihiro Saito Sensei, Part 1
Morihiro Saito (left) with Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba and his wife Hatsu
Iwama – 1955, San-dai Doshu Moriteru Ueshiba (4 years old) seated middle
「バカモノ！　まだ技をかけてないのに勝手に転びやがって！ここは本部ではない！開祖の合気道は、相手の協力なんかなくても倒れるように出来ているんだ！勝手に転ぶのではなく、倒されないように最後まで抵抗して掴め！開祖の合気道は武道なんだ！」
“Idiot! Falling down by yourself even though the technique hasn’t been applied yet! This isn’t Hombu! The Founder’s Aikido is made so that you can throw without the cooperation of the opponent! Don’t just fall down on your own, hold on and resist being thrown until the end! The Founder’s Aikido is Budo!”
One person’s experience upon meeting Morihiro Saito.
Morihiro Saito was born in Ibaraki Prefecture in 1928. Hearing tales of an “old man doing strange techniques up on the mountain near Iwama”, he became a student of Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba in 1946, at the age of eighteen and would train under him for the next twenty-three years.
His work schedule at the Japan National Railway allowed him long shifts working followed by long shifts off, allowing him to spend extensive periods training and acting as a training partner for Morihei Ueshiba as he refined his weapons curriculum. He eventually received a plot of land on Morihei Ueshiba’s property and where he built his house and lived with his wife and children. He and his wife cared for the Ueshiba’s through the last years of their lives.
Morihiro Saito acted as the guardian of the Aiki Shrine until his passing in 2002. He is famous for his dedication to preserving the exact form of Morihei Ueshiba’s techniques as he was taught them during his training under him in Iwama.
Budoka no Kotae – BAB Japan, 2006
This is the first section of the English translation of a three part interview that originally appeared in “Answers from Budoka” (“Budoka no Kotae” / 武道家の答え), published by BAB Japan in 2006.
Morihiro Saito with Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba
in front of the Aiki Shrine, 1955
Budoka no Kotae – Talking to Morihiro Saito Sensei, Part 1
Aikido is formed after the war by Morihei Ueshiba
Q: In this book we are asking those training in budo for their cooperation in giving us their opinions on their budo training, but it may take a number of months before we are ready for publication.
A: Oh, is that right? It must be quite a lot of work, how many sections will there be?
Q: We will divide it into four main sections. Aikido, Judo, Karate-do and Kendo. There will also be a little related to Shorinji Kempo and kobudo.
A: Kobudo, that’s good. Kobudo is wonderful. Because it was since kobudo existed that Aikido was first born.
Q: And it’s likely that those arts like Judo or Kendo that are called gendai budo today would not have been born without kobudo either.
A: Yes, that’s right. Previously, the foreigner from Aiki News – it was Stanley Pranin who, when searching for the roots of Aikido, gathered together authorities from many of the arts that the Founder practiced, such as Daito-ryu , Kashima Shinto-ryu and Yagyu Shingan-ryu for a Friendship Demonstration.
Aikido Instructors at the 1st Aikido Friendship Demonstration in 1985
Left to right: Yasuo Kobayashi, Yoshio Kuroiwa, Kanshu Sunadomari,
Morihiro Saito, Shoji Nishio, Mitsugi Saotome
Q: Was that at the Budokan?
A: No, that was at the Yomiuri Hall in Yurakucho. It’s a small place. It wasn’t anything that was on a scale to hold at the Budokan.
Q: I see. It would be a much bigger event at the Budokan, wouldn’t it?
A: Yes, although in Aikido we hold something there once a year in May.
Q: During that time in the Yomiuri Hall was that person (Mr. Stanley Pranin) able to gather information relating to the roots of Aikido?
A: How about that… He is an Aikido historian – that is to say, he is investigating deeply into the history of Aikido.
Q: Is that right? When was there a book about the roots of Aikido that he published?
A: He published several times that year.
Q: Such as the Aiki News magazine?
A: That’s right. Concerning the Founder, in the Founder’s last years he went to Tokyo permanently, but of course after the war he was in Iwama continuously. Because after the war Budo was suppressed.
Q: For a period of time, right?
A: Yes. But in Showa year 23 (1948), when the Aikikai was reconfirmed under the law, an undersecretary named Tamura came here and secretly asked that at least a seed of Budo would be served from destruction. That really put the Founder in high spirits. The Founder was really serious about the training that started from that time. During the war he was ordered by the military to teach “Itto Issatsu” (“一刀一殺” / “One Cut One Kill”), and he went to the Army and Naval academies and the Toyama Military Academy, so it seemed that he wasn’t able to instruct in the way that he desired.
Q: Ahh, was there a period like that?
A: Yes, there was. He also instructed at the Nakano Spy School.
Q: Is that right? So for Morihei Sensei the defeat in the war was rather a kind of an opportunity?
A: That’s right. He could finally turn towards his original goals, and here in Iwama he was able to put aside the time for the establishment of Aikido. Because he was also, as you know, a student of religion. From Showa year 13 (1938) he became exceedingly vigorous in his activities. Here is a copy of a book from that time, haven’t you seen it before? (holding out a book)
Yoshinkan Aikido Founder Gozo Shioda in “Budo”, 1938
See “Budo – Moritaka Ueshiba’s 1938 Technical Manual“
Q: No, this is…?
A: Is that so? They don’t publicize things like this very much in Tokyo, do they? Mr. Pranin from Aiki News discovered this in the countryside and gave me a copy, it was created in Showa year 13 (1938) or thereabouts.
Q: So this is a book published in 1938? This is an important book, isn’t it?
Morihei Ueshiba’s “Rules for Training”
from the technical manual “Budo” – 1938
1. This bujutsu decides life and death in a single strike, so students must carefully follow the instructor’s teaching and not compete to see who is the strongest.
2. This bujutsu is the way that teaches how one can deal with several enemies. Students must train themselves to be alert not just to the front, but to all sides and the back.
3. Training should always be conducted in a pleasant and joyful atmosphere.
4. The instructor teaches only one small aspect of the art. Its versatile applications must be discovered by each student through incessant practice and training.
5. In daily practice first begin by changing your body (“tai no henko”) and then progress to more intensive practice. Never force anything unnaturally or unreasonably. If this rule is followed, then even elderly people will not hurt themselves and they can train in a pleasant and joyful atmosphere.
6. The purpose of this bujutsu is to train mind and body and to produce sincere, earnest people. Since all the techniques are to be transmitted person-to-person, do not randomly reveal them to others, for this might lead to their being used by hoodlums.
*Translator’s Note: these rules were published after the war in Kisshomaru Ueshiba’s books, but with the word “Aikido” inserted in place of “this bujutsu”.
A: Here he writes some guidelines for training, such as “Training should always be conducted in a pleasant and joyful atmosphere.”. In any case, this was written during the war.
Q: By the way, of the people who trained directly with Morihei Sensei, there are very few left today, isn’t that true?
“Because it is my task to receive the actual techniques of the Founder and then pass them on directly and simply just as they are.” – Morihiro Saito
A: Even so, there many still remaining. Around 1952 or 1953 he started taking trips to the outside – he’d go to Kansai for a week, or travel around for about a month. Sometimes he’d also go to stay in Tokyo like this. So there were many people who were able to take the Founder’s hand directly and receive instruction.
However, in my case it was a matter of time. There was land, but there was no rice being distributed. So if we didn’t grow it ourselves we wouldn’t be able to eat! So when I was able to be there physically I would help with the farming from morning to night, and after I married my wife also helped with the farming full time. We also did all the other regular household chores. Many other people came, but there were a lot of things going on, and they didn’t last very long. In the end, I was the only one left.
Calligraphy for “Ki” by Morihei Ueshiba (signed “Tsunemori”)
What is “Ki”?
Q: Recently the word “Ki” has become widespread in a variety of forms, hasn’t it?
A: Yes, that’s right.
Q: Just what exactly is that “Ki”? Depending upon who’s speaking Ki means a great variety of things – what they call “aura” in Western terminology, or others explain it in Eastern philosophical terms such as “prajna” in Yoga. But is this something that can be seen with the eyes?
A: Well, O-Sensei was also particularly strict about what “Ki” was…. The Founder tended towards religious speech, and the students would study how to express the Founder’s speeches in modern terminology. They each express themselves from their own particular positions. I’m not very good at that kind of thing… Just actual techniques. Because it is my task to receive the actual techniques of the Founder and then pass them on directly and simply just as they are.
Q: Is that so?
A: The way that people do Aikido now changes quite a bit depending upon the instructor. There are people doing the complete opposite of what other people are doing.
Q: For example, in what way?
A: In our Aikikai organization, and outside of it, there are many students of the Founder. There are those who have formed separate organizations – for example Gozo Shioda-san of the Yoshinkan, or Koichi Tohei-san of the Ki Society, each of those were founded by people who came here to study after the war. Shioda-san came here surprisingly often. Tohei-san made that thing called “Ki” his foundation to spread Aikido.
Q: Tohei Sensei seems to be doing Aikido in a separate form, with “Ki” as the foundation.
A: Yes, that’s right. The core of it is in lectures, but he has created a separate Ryu and is working hard at it. He’s an Aikido 10th Dan, and people wanting to learn Aikido join the “Ki Society”, but since most of it is lectures the training is neglected. The Budo world is quite a difficult place!
Q: I see. Is the training here very strict?
A: Because technique is something that you can understand if you see it. People understand before they train, so they are happy, and they get the feeling that it is extremely logical.
Q: Even now do you take their hands and teach them directly?
A: Yes, all of them. The Founder also took the hands of the regular students here and taught them continuously until he passed away. Especially me, since I was assisting with the farming, in the morning he would teach me sword and staff privately.
Q: There are many foreigners also training here, what about them?
A: They are shugyosha.
Q: Is that right? Where do they live?
A: Here, or in apartments nearby.
Q: That’s long term, isn’t it.
A: There are those who are here for an extended period. That woman is here for the third time, she has been here since June last year. Americans, Germans, Australians – during the busy times there are people here from as many as ten countries. Well…right now we have about six countries.
Q: When they come, as they don’t understand Japanese over there, do they learn a bit before they come?
A: There are people like that, and then there are people who don’t understand any at all…I can’t speak any other languages.
Q: When that’s the case, we’re talking about a heart to heart transmission (以心伝心) between people aspiring to the same Budo?
A: One way or another, with a lot of gestures…however, it is very difficult with the French. They must not use much English. Normally, if they speak English than they can somehow communicate between each other, but somehow we have a difficult time when the French come. Also the Italians. But the young people who come from Scandinavia use English so we’re able to get by.
Q: Now Aikido has mostly moved overseas, so most of the people who come must be those who have seen and heard of Aikido over there and then come to the home of Aikido to master it?
A: This year it is nineteen years (at the time of the interview, 1988) since the Founder passed away, but I haven’t traveled anywhere so I have only taught those foreigners who have come here. It began with those who were introduced to Aikido after the Founder passed away. Most of the Europeans would enter Hombu Dojo and wouldn’t come here very often, but while that was happening people began to come, bit by bit.
When the Founder was alive here, one could not become a student without an introduction. That was true even for the local people. For that reason, the people here were a very select group. From there one person became two, two people became four, and then we couldn’t cut off the flow. However, we couldn’t accommodate them all…well, it’s good that people are coming.
Q: How many people are here now?
A: During training…? The evening classes have about thirty or forty people.
Continued in Part 2…
Published by: Christopher Li – Honolulu, HI
July 22, 2017
Interview with Aikido Shihan Yasuo Kobayashi – Part 2
Yasuo Kobayashi in Hawaii in 2008
the late Robert Kubo – Aikikai 8th Dan, Aikido Hawaii International, on the left
“At that point in time, I was caught up in some of the political nonsense amongst various teachers residing in the States, and held forth on this one drunken night at one of the regular parties the dojo had, and Kobayashi sensei said, “X-sensei is my friend, Y-sensei is my friend, Z-sensei is my friend. It all seems simple to me.” In his happy air, in his unpretentious practice and refusal to mystify aikido as either the ultimate combat or a means of establishing world peace, it would have been easy to regard him as an unexceptional man, one who simply liked pleasure, be it jovial laughter, enough beers to make him wobble when he bicycled home, and a regular routine of thumping his students and being thumped in turn. Rather, he always seemed to me to be a man of sublime common sense. As theoretical physicists strive for elegance and simplicity in their equations, Kobayashi sensei appeared to me to do with his life. Such simplicity is far from easy, and all too rare.”
It Had to Be Felt #30: Kobayashi Yasuo – A Living Axle, by Ellis Amdur
Yasuo Kobayashi was born in Tokyo in 1936 and started training in Judo in his fifth year of elementary school. He enrolled at Aikido Hombu Dojo in 1954, the same year that he entered Meiji University, becoming one of the early post-war students of Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba. Now an eighth dan, he is the head of Aikido Kobayashi Dojo, which has more than 120 affiliated dojo around the world
A round table discussion with Kobayashi Sensei appeared previously on the Aikido Sangenkai blog as “Yasuo Kobayashi and Fumiko Nakayama – Living Aikido” (Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3).
The current interview is the second part of a two part interview with Kobayashi Sensei that originally appeared in the May 2005 issue of Gekkan Hiden (月刊秘伝 / “Secret Teachings Monthly”), a well known martial arts magazine in Japan. You may wish to read Part 1 of the interview before reading this section.
This interview was also published in a collection of interviews with students of the Founder published in Japanese as 開祖の横顔 (“Profiles of the Founder”) in 2009. There was a short introduction to this work in the article “Morihei Ueshiba – Profiles of the Founder“. A number of English translations of interviews from that collection appeared have appeared previously – Nobuyoshi Tamura Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Hiroshi Isoyama Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Shigenobu Okumura Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Nobuyuki Watanabe Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Masatake Fujita Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2) , Yoshimitsu Yamada Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Kanshu Sunadomari Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Hiroshi Kato Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Yoshio Kuroiwa Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Morito Suganuma (Part 1 | Part 2) and Kenji Shimizu (Part 1 | Part 2).
“However hard we pushed the staff would not move.” – Yasuo Kobayashi
Interview with Aikido Shihan Yasuo Kobayashi – Part 2
Q: I see. Do the jiyu-waza (“freee-style techniques”) that are often seen at demonstrations date from that time?
A: No, that began to be done after a system of examinations was established. After the number of members began to increase a system of Dan and Kyu examinations was established, and the uchi-deshi took ukemi at the time. However, there were only about five uchi-deshi then, so they weren’t able to partner with everybody as the numbers increased and so it came to be that those taking examinations would alternate taking ukemi for each other. It was then that jiyu-waza was added as an item on the examinations. Demonstrations began to be held from the time that I enrolled, but kihon-waza (“basic techniques”) alone weren’t interesting, so as the result of much thought it was decided to show kokyu-nage. Until that time kokyu-nage was not really done in the dojo.
Q: Why was that?
A: O-Sensei wasn’t very fond of kokyu-nage. Because “It’s just impossible to throw somebody flying that simply!” was his thinking. However, it’s excellent for conditioning so it was introduced into the curriculum. Something similar happened with aiki-nage, against the same background that accompanied the beginning of jiyu-waza. Speaking of that, as far as I know koshi-nage was not practiced at first either, it was after Shoji Nishio Sensei and Yoshio Kuroiwa Sensei researched it themselves that it became popular with other instructors.
“When we went to Hawaii for a seminar wearing our student uniforms
the customs officer asked me if we were in the army.”
Great individuality among the Shihan
Q: Did you often go to Iwama?
A: When there was something happening, like the Aiki Taisai, I was often called there. But it might be better to say that I was dispatched there rather than called. Sometimes a phone call would come from O-Sensei “I’m sick!”, but when I hurried to Iwama he would be doing farmwork in good health. (laughing) I understood later that when O-Sensei became lonely he would use illness as an excuse to summon the young students. Certainly, they didn’t have training every day in Iwama, and since Morihiro Saito Sensei was employed by the National Railway there were times that nobody was there and he must have suddenly become lonely. When that happened I would be made to go and be someone for him to talk with. I would work the farm with him in Iwama, and we would eat together. Normally he was very mild-mannered and even if he only had a single steamed bun there were times that he would divide it with the students. However, when it came to taking care of him he was like a normal selfish old grandfather. (laughing) In any case, his mood would make 180 degree changes very quickly, often going this way and that. For that reason, if one could look ahead and begin to read his habits then one would gradually begin to understand what O-Sensei wanted, but if one couldn’t do that they would have a really difficult time working as an uchi-deshi. There were more than a few people who, although having ability as Budoka, failed through a lack of this kind of sensitivity. However, the experiences from that time were useful later when opening a dojo, so I think that the shugyo of the uchi-deshi was by no means wasted.
Nobuyoshi Tamura (left), Koichi Tohei (center), Yasuo Kobayashi (right)
Q: I’ve heard that you interacted with Morihiro Saito Sensei, Sadateru Arikawa Sensei and Shoji Nishio Sensei, what were your impressions of them?
A: I think that Saito Sensei was attempting to faithfully hand down the techniques that O-Sensei taught in his sixties. As O-Sensei moved from his sixties to his seventies and eighties he inevitably lost physical strength, which caused the movements of his techniques to become softer and more circular. Kisshomaru Sensei changed the techniques at Hombu in accordance with that, but to the last Saito Sensei was fixed on what had been transmitted to him. I think that Gozo Shioda Sensei’s Yoshinkan was the same. On the other hand, since Kisshomaru Sensei mostly didn’t interfere with the details of other’s techniques each of the Shihan at Hombu dojo were a little bit different. Depending upon the instructor, the impression left by even the same technique could be completely different. However, it could be said that it is this depth and breadth that created today’s Aikikai.
Q: Certainly, when one watches Aikikai demonstrations there is a lot of variation. You had many chances to be taught directly by Arikawa Sensei and Tada Sensei, what were your impressions of them?
A: Arikawa Sensei came from Karate, and his training was intense. For that reason, there were a relatively large number of young people among those who followed Arikawa Sensei, even among the regular students, and he would mainly specialize in teaching at universities. Perhaps because of that he did not teach very much outside of Hombu Dojo, and he himself rarely spoke to people of personal matters, so although he was very popular not very many people know much about him in detail. Tada Sensei was a person who never neglected his personal training, so he accumulated an unusual amount of damage from techniques. Depending upon the shihan there were some cases in which they could not apply techniques unless the uke followed them, but that was absolutely never the case when it came to Tada Sensei.
Q: Is there an instructor who influenced you the most?
A: I started with O-Sensei and then attended training with a variety of instructors at Hombu, but each of their techniques were different and I would adjust to each of them, so it felt as if I built my own style from there. Apart from O-Sensei, I was influenced by Kisshomaru Sensei. He had the fewest idiosyncrasies, and felt the most straightforward.
Suppressing protesters at Tokyo University – January 1969
Moving among the common people, I spread Aikido
Q: When did you open the current Kobayashi Dojo?
A: April of Showa year 44 (1969). That was right in the middle of the university protests – universities had been locked out across the board and studies had been halted. Many of the students had fallen into a lifestyle of self-indulgent drinking and massages. It was then that I thought that there may be something that I could do. Well, the only thing that I was capable of was teaching Aikido, but even so I wasn’t able to just go ahead and use Hombu Dojo for my own purposes, so I thought about establishing my own dojo. I didn’t have any money, so I tore down the parking lot next to my house and build a hand-made eighteen tatami mat dojo (*Translator’s note: each tatami mat is approximately three feet wide and six feet long), and I would teach there when I didn’t have to teach at Hombu.
Hiroaki Kobayashi Sensei, now a professional instructor
Q: In other words, you built a dojo for the sake of the students?
A: That’s right. In any case, students don’t eat and drink in small amounts, so those expenses were a real burden. Therefore, when I began recruiting new members I had to make the monthly fees fit their budgets. When my son Hiroaki was three years old, passersby would see me teaching students and my son and ask me “Please teach my children too”, so the number of members began to increase gradually.
Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba and Morihiro Saito in Iwama
Q: It seems that you place importance on sword and staff at your dojo?
A: The sword and staff that I teach is that which was organized by Saito Sensei. O-Sensei would do something different every day, so Saito Sensei, who was taught in Iwama for many years, organized them so that they would be easy to understand and that it would be easy to understand the extension of the technical principles of the sword and staff into the body arts. I think that collecting O-Sensei’s techniques like this was a great achievement. During a day of training in my dojo we always practice with both the sword and the staff, the thirteen step jo kata, the twenty-two step jo kata, the thirty-one step jo kata, we practice them just like that. I also place importance on training in the sword and the staff when I am overseas.
Q: What are your thoughts concerning Aikido as a budo?
A: Truthfully, this is a problem. There are some who criticize Aikido practice as being watered down, and even I don’t deny that. However, if we put that aside, I think that the fact that it has been able to attract those who had no previous interest in budo is an achievement. I myself trained intensely when I was young, so I understand that the evaluation of a budo is connected to its power to handle the strength of a budo’s attacks, but I feel that perhaps we should turn our eyes to the achievement of “the budo that was opened to 10,000 people – Aikido”.
Q: When I hear you speak this way I understand that the narrow and inaccessible path of Aikido has become the broad path that it is today through the efforts of many teachers. So, what are your objectives for the future?
A: I love Aikido and have trained hard for many years so that now I have opened a dojo and am teaching, and I would like to continue in the same way to, as it were, move among the common people and spread Aikido. For that reason, even now I take ukemi for the beginners! In the end, I like to move around when I teach. (laughing) Also, if the locations and the teachers are available then I would like to move forward with opening more dojos. I have more than one-hundred students raised in my dojo that have opened up their own dojos around the country, and I would like to continue to develop capable people.
Gekkan Hiden – May, 2005
Published by: Christopher Li – Honolulu, HI
January 14, 2017
Interview with Aikido Shihan Yasuo Kobayashi – Part 1
Yasuo Kobayashi (小林保雄) Sensei – what a happy guy!
Yasuo Kobayashi was born in Tokyo in 1936 and started training in Judo in his fifth year of elementary school. He enrolled at Aikido Hombu Dojo in 1954, the same year that he entered Meiji University, becoming one of the early post-war students of Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba. Now an eighth dan, he is the head of Aikido Kobayashi Dojo, which has more than 120 affiliated dojo around the world.
Aikido Journal editor Stanley Pranin called him a “man of honor” – when put under pressure to withdraw from Aikido Journal’s 1st Friendship Demonstration in 1985 he simply said “I promised to attend and therefore I will do so.”. His refusal to succumb to outside pressure was the leverage that allowed that demonstration to proceed successfully.
A round table discussion with Kobayashi Sensei appeared previously on the Aikido Sangenkai blog as “Yasuo Kobayashi and Fumiko Nakayama – Living Aikido” (Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3).
The current interview is the first part of a two part interview with Kobayashi Sensei that originally appeared in the May 2005 issue of Gekkan Hiden (月刊秘伝 / “Secret Teachings Monthly”), a well known martial arts magazine in Japan.
This interview was also published in a collection of interviews with students of the Founder published in Japanese as 開祖の横顔 (“Profiles of the Founder”) in 2009. There was a short introduction to this work in the article “Morihei Ueshiba – Profiles of the Founder“. A number of English translations of interviews from that collection appeared have appeared previously – Nobuyoshi Tamura Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Hiroshi Isoyama Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Shigenobu Okumura Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Nobuyuki Watanabe Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Masatake Fujita Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2) , Yoshimitsu Yamada Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Kanshu Sunadomari Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Hiroshi Kato Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Yoshio Kuroiwa Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Morito Suganuma (Part 1 | Part 2) and Kenji Shimizu (Part 1 | Part 2).
Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba in old Hombu Dojo
Yasuo Kobayashi Sensei entering from the right
Interview with Aikido Shihan Yasuo Kobayashi – Part 1
From Judo to Aikido
Q: What motivated you to begin Aikido?
A: I had practiced Judo from the time that I was a child. When I entered high school I was friends with the son of Tomoaki Danzaki (檀崎友彰) Sensei from the Iaido Renmei and he invited me – “There’s a kind of Budo called Aikido, don’t you want to go see it?”. So we went to Hombu Dojo and for the first time I actually saw Aikido with my own eyes. That was the fall of my third year in high school. That was the height of Rikidozan’s popularity, and pro-wrestling was incredibly popular. However, when one spoke of Budo there was absolutely no talk of anything other than Judo, Kendo or Karate, it was a time when something like Aikido or koryu jujutsu would never fall from one’s lips.
Tomoaki Danzaki, 1906-2003, of the Muso Shinden Ryu
He was a student of Morihei Ueshiba’s close friend Hakudo Nakayama
Q: What was your first impression upon seeing Aikido? I think that it must have been something of a completely different nature from Judo.
A: Yes, that’s right. It had a completely different image from the budo that I had seen previously. Conversely, that was one of the things that fascinated me. It wasn’t like Judo, in which one paired up and applied techniques – applying techniques to each other after establishing a distance felt new to me. When we went to visit there was no explanation, they would just apply techniques to each other in silence. I was just told “If you want to do it then come at me!”. The person who was teaching at that time was Hiroshi Tada Sensei.
Q: Did you turn towards Aikido right away?
A: No, I was studying for the university entrance examinations at the time, so I enrolled after I entered the university. I also continued Judo separately through my second year at the university. The Kodokan in Suidobashi, the Aikikai in Ushigome, both of them were close enough to walk to from my home. However, I gradually began to feel that there was a limit to my Judo. That is to say, since I don’t have anything close to a large build, no matter what I did I couldn’t win against large opponents. That was a time when they didn’t have the weight classes that they have today, which made me think that all the more.
Q: I see.
A: Further, as opposed to Judo, in which most of one’s opponents are young, there are a wide range of ages in Aikido. There are young people, but there are also older people. Then, there were those who had resolved to come from the countryside to learn. It was a time in Aikido when both those learning and those teaching were young, so there was a kind of enthusiasm. For those reasons I gradually began to fall towards Aikido rather than Judo, and I came to learn Aikido exclusively from my second year at the university.
Yasuo Kobayashi taking ukemi for Koichi Tohei
Akasaka Palace (State Guest House)
Q: That was a time when Aikido was young. What was it like back then?
A: O-Sensei was living in Iwama and Kisshomaru Sensei was a company employee, so instruction was centered around Tada Sensei. Even if one calls it Hombu Dojo, there were only around ten students. Unlike now, it was a wooden building, and there were two or so war refugee families living there – the space was partitioned for their use. The tatami was tattered and the roof was falling in – light was provided by a naked light bulb swinging from the ceiling. (laughing)
Q: That’s quite different from the way it is now, isn’t it?
A: Yes, it is. At the time I would attend the morning training at 6:30 a.m., and Kisshomaru Sensei was teaching that class. There were some five students living in the dojo, and although there were those who aspired to become professional Aikido instructors, there were also those who commuted to school or work from the dojo. Those people all had a sense of purpose, so they were all interesting human beings – there were many areas in which I was inexperienced, so there were many things that I was able to to learn from them.
Q: Did you become an uchi-deshi?
A: I was living the the Kudan district and I was close enough to walk to the Hombu Dojo in Ushigome, so I commuted. However, although I only attended the morning training at first, as time went on I became interested in the training being done by the uchi-deshi. I would go to the dojo early in the morning, and except for when I was in school I would spend all of my time living with the uchi-deshi, just returning to my home late at night. So, it seems that everybody thought that I was an uchi-deshi. (laughing) I also took care of O-Sensei, so I was treated almost the same as an uchi-deshi.
“When one was thrown by O-Sensei power would be added to the center of their body.”
Q: Who were the uchi-deshi that were living in the dojo at that time?
A: Tada Sensei wasn’t living there, the uchi-deshi that were living there were Sadateru Arikawa (有川定輝) Sensei, Masamichi Noro (野呂昌道) Sensei and Nobuyoshi Tamura (田村信喜) Sensei, who later went to spread Aikido in France.
Front row second from left: Tadashi Abe (阿部正)
Front row right: Nobuyoshi Tamura (田村信喜)
Front row center: the “King of Mounted Bandits” Kohinata Hakuro (小日向白朗)
Second row right: Kazuo Chiba, Yasuo Kobayashi,
Q: In your book (“Aikido, My Way: the Story of Kobayashi Dojos”) you also wrote about Tadashi Abe (阿部正) Sensei and Koichi Tohei (藤平光一) Sensei…
A: Yes. Tohei Sensei was good at teaching, so I think that there were many people who were influenced by him. Abe Sensei once came to the dojo unexpectedly and shouted at me “Is Tohei here!?!”. I had never met him, but I thought “Is this the Abe Sempai that I’ve heard so much about?”. While this was happening Tohei Sensei came in, and as I was showing Abe Sensei in he said “Bring me some water”. As I rushed to bring him the water he said “No matter what I do I’m no match for this guy, so you throw the water on him!”. (laughing) Of course, it was an impossible situation since there was no way that I could do that, but as I paused in confusion he suddenly snatched up the cup himself and threw the water on Tohei Sensei’s face. As you might expect, Tohei Sensei just gave a strained laugh.
Q: What an incredible scene! (laughing) When did you become an instructor at Hombu?
A: At the same time that I graduated from the university. Work was difficult to find at the time, and without an introduction from the education department or the employment office it was difficult to find employment, but I carelessly stood up an interview that I had been recommended for by the employment office. (laughing) They scolded me – “We’re not going to throw any more leads your way!”. But at the time that I graduated I was a 3rd Dan, so I just became an instructor at Hombu.
Q: I’ve heard that your classes at the time were severe and that you received some complaints…
A: At the time that wasn’t limited to me, and it happened more than a few times. The instructors were all young and aggressive, and it wasn’t unusual for them to not take it easy even on the beginners when they were throwing. As for myself, rather than teaching other people I was more interested in my own training than anything else, so it was a time when that sort of thing couldn’t be helped. For that reason, when the uchi-deshi practiced together it was really something. Because at the time there was no training system like the one that is currently established the beginners would be mixed into the training with everybody else. We didn’t do a wide variety of techniques like we do now. “Watch and remember!” was how it was. All the same, I thought that wasn’t the right way, so when I taught I would separate the beginners and teach them separately. Thanks to that I became popular.
Q: You received instruction from the Founder Morihei Ueshiba, felt his techniques, what was your impression?
A: The O-Sensei that taught me was around 70 years old and he still had a lot of physical power. In Iwama he would lift bales of rice without a problem. While he had white hair and a small frame, he shoulders were broad and he had a solid build. When he held a bokken or jo his eyes would become especially sharp. When one was thrown by O-Sensei power would be added to the center of their body. When one is thrown normally it feels like a bouncing ball, it was only with O-Sensei that it felt as if you were being destroyed as you fell. That was really mysterious. O-Sensei would show us the techniques, but there was virtually no explanation of their content. He would often speak of the Kojiki, or about Omoto-kyo, but unfortunately the content was like grasping at clouds, and at the time I just thought “When will we get to move our bodies?”. (laughing) When I think about it now, I think that I should have paid closer attention.
Yasuo Kobayashi taking ukemi for Koichi Tohei (top)
and Morihei Ueshiba (bottom)
Q: There wasn’t any technical explanation at all?
A: Speaking of how to apply technique specifically, depending upon the person there are those who claim – “Ahh, he said this, he said that” – but I, at least, never heard any. When one watches O-Sensei’s demonstrations from his later years he appears to move like someone who has been liberated from earthly desires, but it is because one would be damaged if they didn’t take the fall that the people taking the falls must move in that manner. There are those who failed to understand that point and only saw the external appearance – this is the root of many misunderstandings.
Continued in Part 2…
Published by: Christopher Li – Honolulu, HI
December 17, 2016
Interview with Aikido Shihan Kenji Shimizu – Part 2
Kenji Shimizu Sensei with Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba
“You should think of ukemi as being the secret to aikido”. This is my personal experience. During my uchideshi time the founder made me fall without questioning, on top of this I was scolded mercilessly when my ukemi was bad. I had so many painful experiences, that I continuously worried about whether there would be ever any progress, if I would do things like this. Having made it in Judo to the fourth dan grade and thinking I did good ukemi, I doubted that I had to be scolded like this.
But that was a mistake. I had forgotten to put Judo aside and start from zero. I only took my ukemi as I pleased. Yet I was made to become aware of the fact, that my body didn’t move as one with o-sensei’s body. When I think about it now I feel ashamed, that I thought it would be good just to take a showy ukemi.
Ukemi means reading your partner’s breath, and if one will not respond towards the nage (the person who throws) you cannot speak of true ukemi. Mastering ukemi means noticing the signs of your environment, which enables you to deal promptly with the circumstances. The bamboo for examples moves according to the relative strength of the wind, and when the wind stops, the bamboo returns to its original state. That is completely natural and it is alive. In aikido we don’t fight for victory or defeat. It is a way where we improve ourselves through training by repeating the techniques. It is important that you always can correspond with shite (the person, who is executing the technique) whom you are facing. This however is very difficult.
Though it is hard to learn a natural ukemi, an ukemi without force, you have made a huge progress in your technique whenever your body understands a little bit more about it. That may be, because you have learnt to utilize the executing person’s breath power in your own technique. And in my case, I was uke of osensei…
It is important to experience naturally strong techniques. If you cannot do ukemi soft and flexible, it is most likely, that you cannot execute a technique soft and flexible. The natural ukemi in aikido also makes you understand life.
“The Ukemi in Aikido” by Kenji Shimizu
Already an accomplished Judo-ka, Kenji Shimizu (清水健二) Sensei became one of the last uchi-deshi (“live-in student”) of Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba in 1963.
After the passing of the Founder he established his own style of Aikido – Tendo-ryu Aikido (天道流合気道), “School of the Way of Heaven”. In 1991 Shimizu Sensei received his eighth dan from the Nihon Kokusai Budoin, and in 2002 was honored by the Japanese foreign minister for spreading knowledge of Aikido as a part of Japanese culture. He travels and teaches extensively in Europe.
He is the author of “Zen and Aikido” (with Shigeo Kamata) and “Aikido: The Heavenly Road“.
This is the second part of a two part interview with Shimizu Sensei that originally appeared in the July and August 2006 issues of Gekkan Hiden (月刊秘伝 / “Secret Teachings Monthly”), a well known martial arts magazine in Japan. You may wish to read Part 1 of the interview before reading this section.
This interview was also published in a collection of interviews with students of the Founder published in Japanese as 開祖の横顔 (“Profiles of the Founder”) in 2009. There was a short introduction to this work in the article “Morihei Ueshiba – Profiles of the Founder“. A number of English translations of interviews from that collection appeared have appeared previously – Nobuyoshi Tamura Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Hiroshi Isoyama Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Shigenobu Okumura Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Nobuyuki Watanabe Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Masatake Fujita Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2) , Yoshimitsu Yamada Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Kanshu Sunadomari Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Hiroshi Kato Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2), Yoshio Kuroiwa Sensei (Part 1 | Part 2) and Morito Suganuma (Part 1 | Part 2).

Kenji Shimizu takes ukemi for Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba
Interview with Aikido Shihan Kenji Shimizu – Part 2
Concerning Morihei Ueshiba and Sokaku Takeda
Q: Was there anything else about the Founder than left an impression on you?
A: While doing muna-dori during one demonstration I grabbed O-Sensei’s beard along with his keiko-gi. “Oh no!”, I thought, but he just applied the technique to me calmly. It felt as if he had mastered every applied variation in his skin. Then, O-Sensei had an interest in calligraphy, and at that time it was usually my job to prepare the ink. I would prepare a large quantity of ink, and O-Sensei would apply it to a thick brush and write on a large piece of calligraphy paper – at that time the ink from the brush would often drip down onto the calligraphy paper. But even then O-Sensei would just say “Huh”, gather himself and use it as one part of the character that he was drawing. When he did that the shape of the characters would become unique. Later on a calligraphy specialist saw that and said “That O-Sensei drew it this way must have some kind of meaning…”. As you might expect, I had some mixed feelings when I heard that. I certainly couldn’t say that it was the result of dribbled ink.
Yoshio Sugino and Minoru Mochizuki training in Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu
I heard this from Minoru Mochizuki Sensei (望月稔) of the Yoseikan (養成館). Long before I became a student there were many high ranking Judo and Kendo practitioners who would come to train, and O-Sensei would criticize Judo and Kendo without compunction. He would even turn towards Kendo students and say “Kendo today is just hitting with a sword”. The former Prime Minister Fumimaro Konoe (近衛文麿) came to train for a time, and one day he finished training and prepared to go home. At the time O-Sensei was with a guest in the reception room and one of the students came to say “His excellency Konoe is leaving”, but O-Sensei just said “Is that so? Well, give him my regards.” and didn’t even stand up from his seat. The guest, surprised, asked “Is it OK if you don’t see him out?”, but O-Sensei said “You are a guest, Konoe-san is a student.”. He certainly had that kind of fiber. There are those today who never actually met O-Sensei who just repeat hearsay, but I bathed with him and we broke bread together. (laughing) According to Mochizuki Sensei, in the beginning of the Showa era (1926-1989) the Kodokan’s Jigoro Kano Sensei gave O-Sensei a look or two. Truthfully, it seems as if he wanted to pull him into the Kodokan, but O-Sensei had already created his own school. So then he directed his own senior students to study under him. Yoshio Sugino Sensei of the Katori Shinto-ryu was also one of those people.
Q: Did you have some interaction with Mochizuki Sensei while he was alive?
A: Yes. During the time that Mochizuki Sensei was the Director (塾頭) of Hombu Dojo he met Sokaku Takeda, and he would often talk about that. Sokaku Sensei came to visit while Mochizuki Sensei was watching the dojo. He seemed like one of those ancient warriors that appear in period novels. He would always carry a sword cane with him when he went out, and he would conceal a knife under the front of his clothing, so his abdomen was covered with cuts. Then, when he went to go home in a taxi after visiting the dojo a wild dog started barking at Sokaku Sensei insistently, and when he hit it with the butt of his sword cane it fell over right there. When Mochizuki Sensei checked he found that it had died instantly. Sugino Sensei also met Sokaku Sensei, and according to him Sokaku Sensei would always check the room before entering – there were times when he made Sugino Sensei open the door for him. It was also difficult when he drank tea, he would always carry tea leaves and a tea cup with him and would just ask for hot water when he was out. When Sugino Sensei prepared the hot water for him he would say “You take a sip”. The point being that he must have been afraid of being drugged or poisoned.
Q: Those must have been normal precautions for ancient warriors.
A: Even in O-Sensei’s case, he wouldn’t stay in the bath long, and wouldn’t display openings carelessly. In any case, he was an extremely cautious person. Perhaps that is something that he learned from Sokaku Sensei.
Kenji Shimizu taking ukemi
Memories of Hombu Dojo
Q: Did the Founder do sword and staff in his later years?
A: No. He almost never did. Most of the time the O-Sensei used a sword or a staff it was for explaining the Riai (理合 – “unified principles”) of Aikido. Because Aikido is not Kendo. We were often taught the Riai of Aiki-ken and Aiki-jo. The demonstrations left an impression on me. There was a demonstration that was given at one place in which O-Sensei carried a folding fan. He gave me a bokken and said “I’ll go easy on you, so come and cut me as strongly as you can!”. In the instant that I tried to strike him as hard as I could I took an atemi to the jaw and flew backwards. It wasn’t anything like “going easy”! (laughing) O-Sensei would often use a folding fan to express yokemen-uchi and tsuki movements. If I had thought that was going to happen then things would have gone differently. At the time, there were many people who came to learn who were from the class of company presidents and politicians. For example, one who was very kind to me was Sunao Sonoda (園田直), who was employed as the Minister of Health, Labour and Welfare and the Minister for Foreign Affairs. Also, Takeo Kimura (木村武雄), who was the right hand man for former Prime Minister Kakuei Tanaka (田中角栄), Tomisaburo Hashimoto (橋本登美三郎) and Toshiki Kaifu (海部俊樹), who would later become Prime Minister, were there. Among those Mr. Sonoda was the first head of the Kokkai Aikikai (国会合気会 – National Diet Aikikai), where I taught for about three years as the first shihan.
Toshiki Kaifu speaking at the 80th Anniversary of Hombu Dojo,
the 70th Anniversary of the Aikikai
Also, there was Mr. Shigeru Sahashi (佐橋滋), who was the Administrative Vice‐Minister of International Trade and Industry (通産省事務次官). When Mr. Sahashi was the Administrative Vice‐Minister the Minister of International Trade and Industry (通産大臣) was Mr. Takeo Miki (三木武夫), who would later become Prime Minister (*Translator’s note: Takeo Miki also ran for election as Prime Minister in 1942, against Hideki Tojo), and in the Ministry of International Trade and Industry the Administrative Vice‐Minister was at the top of the career ladder. One time, a bill was passed by Minister Miki’s office, but failed to pass through Vice‐Minister Sahashi’s office. From that time they were called “Minister Sahashi and Vice-Minister Miki” in the Ministry of International Trade and Industry. That Mr. Sahashi wrote just a little bit about his time training with me in the Showa year 44 (1969) issue of Bungeishunju (文芸春秋). Mr. Watanabe, who was a Bureau Chief in the Ministry of International Trade and Industry, and the Giant’s coach Mr. Hiroshi Arakawa would also come to practice often.
Coach Hiroshi Arakawa watches Sadaharu Oh practice cutting – 1964
Q: Who were the uchi-deshi at the time that you enrolled?
A: I don’t have much chance to meet them these days because most of them are now overseas, or for other reasons, but the uchi-deshi at the time were Tamura (Nobuyoshi) Sensei, Saotome (Mitsugi) Sensei, Sasaki (Masando) Sensei, Chiba (Kazuo) Sensei, Imaizumi (Shizuo) Sensei who was was the captain of the Waseda University Aikido club, also Sugano (Seiichi) Sensei, Kurita (Minoru) Sensei and Kanai (Mitsunari) Sensei. There were always about ten uchi-deshi there. In any case, the life of an uchi-deshi is difficult. One is always hungry. Of course, the compensation is small, so in the end one had to hang on to their parent’s legs. My parents wanted me to find another job quickly, and we used to fight about that a lot. When my parents came to Tokyo we took them to some of the better places that we would sometimes go to eat, but my mother said “You eat in places like this?” and broke out in tears. However, it’s said that those who come from hunger build spirit, and we certainly had that. It is said that in the past only those with enough money were be able to become uchi-deshi, so these were really very fine people.
Kenji Shimizu and Morihei Ueshiba around 1965-1966
Tendo-ryu is “Shimizu Aikido”
Q: Was it from Showa year 45 (1970) that you became independent as Tendo-ryu?
A: Yes, that’s right. That was after O-Sensei passed away. I first I used the name Shimizu Dojo, I rented space from a Judo dojo called Sato Dojo (*Translator’s note: 佐藤道場 – now continued by the children of the original instructor as an osteopathic clinic) in Setagaya Ward. After that I moved to our current location and took the name Tendo-ryu.
Q: Did you have a plan of your own when you became independent?
A: Even if you use the one word “Aikido” there are a lot of variations, aren’t there? Yoshinkan, Tomiki-ryu, even at Aikikai Hombu Dojo the techniques could be quite different depending upon who is instructing. We use he word Aikido as a general term for all of them, but since the content of each of them is different I decided to call my Aikido – “Shimizu Aikido”. In the Bujutsu (Kenjutsu) of the past, it is said that there were more than fifty ryu-ha (schools). The ryu-ha would polish each other, and there there was great progress in Bujutsu. Morihei Ueshiba Sensei was certainly my instructor, but if I have a dojo and teach then it’s my Aikido, isn’t it? That was the reason that I called it Shimizu Dojo when I became independent. After that, it wasn’t that I hid my individual name in order to expand, I thought that a solid ryu-ha should have a name, so I named it “Tendo-ryu”. For that reason, I never consciously changed the techniques. What I was doing were O-Sensei’s techniques, and the foundation was constructed strictly by O-Sensei, but my movements are not the same as O-Sensei’s. My thoughts and physique are different, at any rate it becomes Shimizu’s Aikido. Accordingly, although it is called Tendo-ryu, it has not been altered greatly.
Q: Is there something that you are particular about when it comes to instruction?
A: What I am particular about when it comes to instruction concerns ukemi, as we discussed earlier. For the uke to match their kokyu to the nage is something that is extremely difficult. In Aikido there is kokyu-ho and kokyu-nage, and depending upon the person large individual differences emerge. Well, it can’t be helped that there are skillful people and then those who are not so skillful, those who have the feeling but whose bodies can’t keep up and so forth. For that reason, there are issues that of skillful/unskillful in casual training that can’t be helped. There are those who develop quickly but end up stagnating, and there are those who develop slowly, a little bit at a time. One more thing, I believe that fighting for victory and defeat in training is not good. Since this is Budo, one might think that it looks like fighting to outward appearances, but the reality is different. In the repetition of kata the shite acts as the blade, and the uke must act as the sharpening stone. I believe that it is through that repetition that one becomes tempered. It is my belief that Aikido today is too conscious of strength, it seems as if the techniques are being destroyed. Perhaps one could say that people are “pursuing the strength that can be seen with the eyes”.
Kenji Shimizu and Morihei Ueshiba around 1965-1966
The relationship of Shite as the blade, Uke as the sharpening stone
Q: Do you mean that the relationship between the blade and the sharpening stone has been destroyed?
A: Yes, that’s right. If the sharpening stone is uneven then the blade will be uneven as well. When one turns an old bolt, if the bolt is rusty then they apply some oil and turn it a little bit at a time, if one just tries to force it without any oil then it will break. I am fearful of becoming that kind of Aikido. In other words, I am fearful of falling into the delusion that one cannot become strong without applying a technique strongly, of pursuing external strength.
In the case of Aikido, one does not apply technique suddenly, even though one applies it slowly it is effective. I have often experienced attempts of people struggling with each other to apply techniques that will injure the partner. However repetitive kata practice is, I do not think that it is acceptable to injure someone unnecessarily, and if one side resists needlessly the one being resisted will just respond by resisting in turn.
Q: As you said before, the role of the Shite is to act as the blade, and the role of the Uke is to act as the sharpening stone, so will the Uke be able to bring their role as the sharpening stone to fruition if they are not of a higher level than the Shite?
A: There is an important meaning there. For example, during demonstrations Uke becomes able to read the kokyu of the Shite. If that’s not the case then the Shite is simply throwing around someone who is of a lower level then they are, and one is just being thrown around. There are also those who say “The truth is that in Aikido technique one cannot take ukemi”, but it is easy to make it impossible to take ukemi. One just has to apply a technique halfway – but that is a mistake. Controlling the opponent without damaging them is the best. Conversely, when one thinks that it is acceptable to damage the opponent they will not be able to apply their technique on powerful opponents. The reason for this is that once they encounter resistance partway through the technique it’s all over. If one actually tries this then they will understand – if one attempts to use force “I’ll hold you down!” during training then one could say with confidence that the opponent will always sense that and instinctively resist. However, if one applies the technique slowly so that the opponent cannot tell when they will be immobilized, they will be strangely unable to resist. In other words, when there are corners left in one’s movement it won’t be effective on someone who’s a little bit strong. One ought to use a form that protects them against unexpected surprises. In other words, a posture in which one is prepared to destroy the opponent at any time, although controlling them without damage is best. I would like to faithfully preserve these kind of important points that have been passed down to us through the ages.
When training in Budo, what must really become strong is one’s mind. External strength can not be relied upon. In other words, strength that relies on youth is like steel heated in fire – as time passes it becomes cold. However, internal strength is without limit. Strength is limited, the mind is without limit. For that reason, in the past it was through mental training such as zazen that one created “resolve”. Especially when one stood in a position above others, without mental strength nobody would follow them. O-Sensei also said “Real Aikido begins after one is 60 years old. Until one passes 60 the real strength of their spirit does not emerge.”, and now I really understand the meaning of he was saying.
Q: In society, if one says sixty years old they are talking about retirement age, aren’t they?
A: That’s right. But that’s completely backwards. Also, it’s true that there are no competitions in Aikido, but there are certainly diferences in levels. The reason for that is that one can usually learn the basics of Aikido technique in about three years. However, that is still just the entranceway. The problem is from that point forward. While there are those who progress from that point, there are those who just draw a horizontal line, and those who go into a downward curve.
For that reason, it’s not really a problem of how many years one was with some person. What is needed is intensity of training and a willingness to take things in. If one takes things seriously, anyone can progress with certainty.
Q: I see. Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to speak with us today. I will pray for the ever-increasing growth of Tendo-ryu.
Gekkan Hiden 2006, July-August
Published by: Christopher Li – Honolulu, HI
November 19, 2016